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Voice of the People
Author: BobR
Date: 07/27/2011 12:44:45
Ask anyone what they think their greatest right is for having a voice in our country. Some may quote the First Amendment, saying its "freedom of speech", or "freedom of the press", or the right "peaceably to assemble" or "petition the government for a redress of grievances" (whether via phone, mail, or direct protest). I submit that the greatest right we have for speaking our voices is the right to vote.
What is both sad alarming, though, is the capriciousness with which that right is treated. How is it that states can deny someone this most basic right after being convicted of a felony, even after "paying their debt to society"? Where is that in the Constitution?
Women and non-white males were not afforded that right initially, and required changes to our Consitution. It wasn't until 1920 and the 19th Amendment that women got the right to vote. And it wasn't 1964 and the 24th Amendment that everyone was given freedom from poll taxes designed to deny that right to poor (black) voters:
In retrospect, the amendment should have ended at "or any state". It is the poll tax aspect that has allowed states run by Republicans to use "voter ID" laws to disenfranchise poor voters, most of whom tend to vote Democratic. The situation in Wisconsin is a perfect example of this:
Those "other DMV offices" are in Republican districts. These laws pass constitutional muster because a person can get a voter ID free of charge. Of course - they need to be able to get to the office and fill out the paperwork, and then there's the burden of proof to get the ID in the first place.
These tactics are similar to those used by Kathleen Harris of Florida in the 2000 election to purge blacks (Democrats) from the voter rolls, thus denying them the right to vote, and tipping Florida far enough in the direction of George Bush to affect a win in that state. Florida is also one of those states that denies the right to vote to the aforementioned felons, and that was the rationale used to purge the rolls in the first place. If the state could not deny them that right, then they would not have an excuse to purge them from the rolls.
Perhaps it's time for a Constitutional amendment to address those pesky extra words in the 24 Amendment:
What is both sad alarming, though, is the capriciousness with which that right is treated. How is it that states can deny someone this most basic right after being convicted of a felony, even after "paying their debt to society"? Where is that in the Constitution?
Women and non-white males were not afforded that right initially, and required changes to our Consitution. It wasn't until 1920 and the 19th Amendment that women got the right to vote. And it wasn't 1964 and the 24th Amendment that everyone was given freedom from poll taxes designed to deny that right to poor (black) voters:
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
In retrospect, the amendment should have ended at "or any state". It is the poll tax aspect that has allowed states run by Republicans to use "voter ID" laws to disenfranchise poor voters, most of whom tend to vote Democratic. The situation in Wisconsin is a perfect example of this:
Republican Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's administration is moving forward with a plan that would close as many as 10 driver's license offices only months before a new law will require voters to present a photo ID before casting a ballot.
On May 25, Walker signed the voter photo ID bill which mandates voters present a driver's license, state ID, military ID, passport, naturalization papers or tribal ID before casting their ballots.
[...]
Democratic Wisconsin state Rep. Andy Jorgensen told The Associated Press that Walker appeared to be targeting Democratic districts with his decision to shut down 10 Department of Motor Vehicle (DMV) offices.
[...]
But Walker's administration has denied the decision was political, saying the closures were part of an effort to expand operating hours at other DMV offices.
Those "other DMV offices" are in Republican districts. These laws pass constitutional muster because a person can get a voter ID free of charge. Of course - they need to be able to get to the office and fill out the paperwork, and then there's the burden of proof to get the ID in the first place.
These tactics are similar to those used by Kathleen Harris of Florida in the 2000 election to purge blacks (Democrats) from the voter rolls, thus denying them the right to vote, and tipping Florida far enough in the direction of George Bush to affect a win in that state. Florida is also one of those states that denies the right to vote to the aforementioned felons, and that was the rationale used to purge the rolls in the first place. If the state could not deny them that right, then they would not have an excuse to purge them from the rolls.
Perhaps it's time for a Constitutional amendment to address those pesky extra words in the 24 Amendment:
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied, abridged, or hampered by the United States or any state for any reason.
Comments:
Order comments Newest to Oldest Refresh Comments
Comment by 
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 12:58:17
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 12:58:17
Morning? :echo:
Comment by 
TriSec on 07/27/2011 13:02:06
TriSec on 07/27/2011 13:02:06
Greetings, comrades!
Birthday wishes to a Mr. Bugs Bunny and the deHavilland Comet I today!
Birthday wishes to a Mr. Bugs Bunny and the deHavilland Comet I today!
Comment by 
Raine on 07/27/2011 13:11:42
Raine on 07/27/2011 13:11:42
Good Morning! 
Comment by 
wickedpam on 07/27/2011 13:14:54
wickedpam on 07/27/2011 13:14:54
Morning 
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 13:20:04
Raine on 07/27/2011 13:20:04
Oh, sometimes NYS shows it's redneck too!
This, my friends, is why we can't have nice things.
This, my friends, is why we can't have nice things.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 13:22:49
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 13:22:49
He itsh Gary Gygax'ish birthday! Basement dwelling nerds are huffing on their inhalers in tribute, and the calling out, "Maaaaaammmmmmmmmm! Howsh that birthday cake for Gary coming?!" Then they are dipping their orange stained fingers into a family sized bag of Cheetoes.
Comment by 
BobR on 07/27/2011 13:26:31
BobR on 07/27/2011 13:26:31
blog is up
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 13:29:25
And read as well. I think the Johnny Benchian finger prints of ALEC are all over these voter suppression laws. Our wacky Florida legislature passed one almost identical to the Wisconsin law this past session. Of course there was high minded rhetoric about "preventing voter fraud," which we all know is bullshit.
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 13:29:25
Quote by BobR:
blog is up
And read as well. I think the Johnny Benchian finger prints of ALEC are all over these voter suppression laws. Our wacky Florida legislature passed one almost identical to the Wisconsin law this past session. Of course there was high minded rhetoric about "preventing voter fraud," which we all know is bullshit.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 13:37:16
Raine on 07/27/2011 13:37:16
Sad and excellent Blog, Bobber.
It's a lot like Abortion clinics -- they are legal, but States can prevent new ones from Opening up. People in the NE are by and large lucky that they can go to one, but imagine living in Kansas, for example. If a poor woman has to drive across state, and then is told to wait 2 days, That is 2 days at a motel, and quite possibly 3 or more days she won;t get paid at her job. (If she's not fired)
This is what these republicans do -- the disenfranchise people from having access to their rights as citizens-- These rights are easy to access if you have money. What happens to the people that can't drive? the people that have low paying jobs in Wisconsin -- that is why this is essentially a poll tax.
It's a lot like Abortion clinics -- they are legal, but States can prevent new ones from Opening up. People in the NE are by and large lucky that they can go to one, but imagine living in Kansas, for example. If a poor woman has to drive across state, and then is told to wait 2 days, That is 2 days at a motel, and quite possibly 3 or more days she won;t get paid at her job. (If she's not fired)
This is what these republicans do -- the disenfranchise people from having access to their rights as citizens-- These rights are easy to access if you have money. What happens to the people that can't drive? the people that have low paying jobs in Wisconsin -- that is why this is essentially a poll tax.
Comment by wickedpam on 07/27/2011 13:37:24
wickedpam on 07/27/2011 13:37:24
I have to say that when I first registered to vote way back in the 80's in NC all I did was sit down at the card table with the a nice older lady and fill out some paper work. I don't remember if I got a card or anything back then but I most certainly didn't have a drivers license when I showed up to vote at the fire station down the road from one of my fave record stores (School Kids Records). I think I may have showed my school id but there was no fuss.
When I moved to VA, I again sat down with a nice little old lady at her card table in the mall and filled out the paper work. A few days later I got my voters registration card in the mail. And that is all I produce when I vote. There's no pix id no asking for other proof that I am who I am and I live where I live.
These days I don't see those nice little old ladies and their card tables. I'm think we need to get back to them if we want be able to use our right to vote.
When I moved to VA, I again sat down with a nice little old lady at her card table in the mall and filled out the paper work. A few days later I got my voters registration card in the mail. And that is all I produce when I vote. There's no pix id no asking for other proof that I am who I am and I live where I live.
These days I don't see those nice little old ladies and their card tables. I'm think we need to get back to them if we want be able to use our right to vote.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 13:54:45
Raine on 07/27/2011 13:54:45
Comment by wickedpam on 07/27/2011 13:58:36
Well that explains my experience with voting and all.
I just don't get the hang up on photo ids - its not like you can pass you registration card to someone else and they can use your name to vote - they check off your name and you have to sign that you were there
wickedpam on 07/27/2011 13:58:36
Quote by Raine:
This is a good chart about voter ID requirements all around the country.
Well that explains my experience with voting and all.
I just don't get the hang up on photo ids - its not like you can pass you registration card to someone else and they can use your name to vote - they check off your name and you have to sign that you were there
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 13:59:15
Raine on 07/27/2011 13:59:15
and over in Tennessee (this is from April so I am looking to what has transpired there)
State Attorney General Bob Cooper has issued a legal opinion that a Republican-led effort to require photo identification to vote would violate the Tennessee and U.S. constitutions.
Cooper said in the opinion released Wednesday that without a provision to supply voters with free ID cards, the measure "unduly burdens the right to vote" and would constitute a poll tax.
Comment by TriSec on 07/27/2011 13:59:46
TriSec on 07/27/2011 13:59:46
See now, I've never had to show any kind of ID whatsoever, either to register, vote, or even as a candidate to pull or submit nomination papers.
However, in this state there's a persistent rumor that the Jury Pool comes from the voter rolls; I know a significant number of people that have never registered to vote because they don't want to serve on a jury.
Completely false, btw.
However, in this state there's a persistent rumor that the Jury Pool comes from the voter rolls; I know a significant number of people that have never registered to vote because they don't want to serve on a jury.
Completely false, btw.
Comment by BobR on 07/27/2011 14:03:07
Even if they're free (and they generally are), there's still the burden of getting one.
BobR on 07/27/2011 14:03:07
Quote by Raine:
and over in Tennessee (this is from April so I am looking to what has transpired there)State Attorney General Bob Cooper has issued a legal opinion that a Republican-led effort to require photo identification to vote would violate the Tennessee and U.S. constitutions.
Cooper said in the opinion released Wednesday that without a provision to supply voters with free ID cards, the measure "unduly burdens the right to vote" and would constitute a poll tax.
Even if they're free (and they generally are), there's still the burden of getting one.
Comment by BobR on 07/27/2011 14:04:06
gee, I wonder who *cough*cough*Republicans*cough*cough* started THAT rumor?
BobR on 07/27/2011 14:04:06
Quote by TriSec:
See now, I've never had to show any kind of ID whatsoever, either to register, vote, or even as a candidate to pull or submit nomination papers.
However, in this state there's a persistent rumor that the Jury Pool comes from the voter rolls; I know a significant number of people that have never registered to vote because they don't want to serve on a jury.
Completely false, btw.
gee, I wonder who *cough*cough*Republicans*cough*cough* started THAT rumor?
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 14:10:16
Read this blog. In Tennessee, in order to get a photo ID, It appears you need a photo ID. 
Raine on 07/27/2011 14:10:16
Quote by BobR:Quote by Raine:
and over in Tennessee (this is from April so I am looking to what has transpired there)State Attorney General Bob Cooper has issued a legal opinion that a Republican-led effort to require photo identification to vote would violate the Tennessee and U.S. constitutions.
Cooper said in the opinion released Wednesday that without a provision to supply voters with free ID cards, the measure "unduly burdens the right to vote" and would constitute a poll tax.
Even if they're free (and they generally are), there's still the burden of getting one.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 14:43:44
Raine on 07/27/2011 14:43:44
The other thing I find amazing is that in States like Georgia and Tennessee, it cost the states a lot of money to pay for and print those ID cards.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 14:52:41
This gets back to something I've been saying about the GOP for a while now. They are economic liberty for the rich. Beyond economic liberty, the are the party of restricting peoples rights: abortion, voting, marriage you name it the GOP wants to limit your rights.
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 14:52:41
Quote by Raine:
Sad and excellent Blog, Bobber.
It's a lot like Abortion clinics -- they are legal, but States can prevent new ones from Opening up. People in the NE are by and large lucky that they can go to one, but imagine living in Kansas, for example. If a poor woman has to drive across state, and then is told to wait 2 days, That is 2 days at a motel, and quite possibly 3 or more days she won;t get paid at her job. (If she's not fired)
This is what these republicans do -- the disenfranchise people from having access to their rights as citizens-- These rights are easy to access if you have money. What happens to the people that can't drive? the people that have low paying jobs in Wisconsin -- that is why this is essentially a poll tax.
This gets back to something I've been saying about the GOP for a while now. They are economic liberty for the rich. Beyond economic liberty, the are the party of restricting peoples rights: abortion, voting, marriage you name it the GOP wants to limit your rights.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 14:57:26
Raine on 07/27/2011 14:57:26
Would it be fair to say that the 24th Amendment actually overrules the 10th? I mean I was pretty sure that before the 24th -- it was the 10th that states used to create poll taxes. I thought the 24th was meant to rectify that.
Therefore, I submit that there is no change needed, I think these new ID laws are not constitutional. I know SCOTUS said photo ID laws are ok, (Indiana '08) but these laws are becoming more and more restrictive. That case in Indiana imo was poorly argued.
Therefore, I submit that there is no change needed, I think these new ID laws are not constitutional. I know SCOTUS said photo ID laws are ok, (Indiana '08) but these laws are becoming more and more restrictive. That case in Indiana imo was poorly argued.
Comment by 
Scoopster on 07/27/2011 15:06:16
Scoopster on 07/27/2011 15:06:16
Mornin' all.. 
It's Hump Day! 
It's Hump Day!
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:09:58
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:09:58
Another Sad loss of life.
U.S. Olympic medalist skier commits suicide
Olympic silver medalist Jeret "Speedy" Peterson was found dead in a remote canyon in Utah in what police are calling a suicide.
Peterson, a freestyle skier who patented the so-called "Hurricane" and took second place at the Vancouver Games with it, called 911 before shooting himself, police said. The 29-year-old had been cited for drunken driving Friday in Hailey, Idaho and had pleaded not guilty.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:17:55
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:17:55
They are disgusting, They really are, horrible wretched people.
According to the Washington Post, Rep. Allen West (R-FL) replied “I’m ready to drive the car.â€
In the movie, the characters then put on hockey masks and bludgeon two men with sticks, then shoot one man in the leg.
Comment by BobR on 07/27/2011 15:20:46
If the SCOTUS says ID laws are Constitutional, then the updated amendment is needed.
BobR on 07/27/2011 15:20:46
Quote by Raine:
Would it be fair to say that the 24th Amendment actually overrules the 10th? I mean I was pretty sure that before the 24th -- it was the 10th that states used to create poll taxes. I thought the 24th was meant to rectify that.
Therefore, I submit that there is no change needed, I think these new ID laws are not constitutional. I know SCOTUS said photo ID laws are ok, (Indiana '08) but these laws are becoming more and more restrictive. That case in Indiana imo was poorly argued.
If the SCOTUS says ID laws are Constitutional, then the updated amendment is needed.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:22:33
NSFW
THIS is Eric Cantor.
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:22:33
Quote by Raine:
They are disgusting, They really are, horrible wretched people.
According to the Washington Post, Rep. Allen West (R-FL) replied “I’m ready to drive the car.â€
In the movie, the characters then put on hockey masks and bludgeon two men with sticks, then shoot one man in the leg.
THIS is Eric Cantor.
Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 15:25:42
I actually met Gary Gygax a few times, and found him to be a pretty friendly guy.
Contrary to the stereotype, a lot of successful and socially active people play role playing games. Of course, if we want stereotypes, we can always talk sports fans.
Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 15:25:42
Quote by Mondobubba:
He itsh Gary Gygax'ish birthday! Basement dwelling nerds are huffing on their inhalers in tribute, and the calling out, "Maaaaaammmmmmmmmm! Howsh that birthday cake for Gary coming?!" Then they are dipping their orange stained fingers into a family sized bag of Cheetoes.
I actually met Gary Gygax a few times, and found him to be a pretty friendly guy.
Contrary to the stereotype, a lot of successful and socially active people play role playing games. Of course, if we want stereotypes, we can always talk sports fans.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:25:47
b I guess you are correct. I suspect tho, that since 3 years have passed there could be a case that people have been disenfranchised. It could be argued from a totally different approach.
I think the ACLU probably should not have argued it as a party issue.
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:25:47
Quote by BobR:Quote by Raine:
Would it be fair to say that the 24th Amendment actually overrules the 10th? I mean I was pretty sure that before the 24th -- it was the 10th that states used to create poll taxes. I thought the 24th was meant to rectify that.
Therefore, I submit that there is no change needed, I think these new ID laws are not constitutional. I know SCOTUS said photo ID laws are ok, (Indiana '08) but these laws are becoming more and more restrictive. That case in Indiana imo was poorly argued.
If the SCOTUS says ID laws are Constitutional, then the updated amendment is needed.
I think the ACLU probably should not have argued it as a party issue.
Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 15:31:10
Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 15:31:10
BobR, thanks for an excellent blog!
Let's remember that Reagan campaign strategist Paul Weyrich said that the political leverage of religious conservatives went up as the number of voters went down.
I think that we will see several law suits over what seems to be new versions of the poll tax. I think that Weyrich's sentiments are alive and well among his political heirs.
Let's remember that Reagan campaign strategist Paul Weyrich said that the political leverage of religious conservatives went up as the number of voters went down.
I think that we will see several law suits over what seems to be new versions of the poll tax. I think that Weyrich's sentiments are alive and well among his political heirs.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:33:14
HEY!
Hi Will!
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:33:14
Quote by Will in Chicago:Quote by Mondobubba:
He itsh Gary Gygax'ish birthday! Basement dwelling nerds are huffing on their inhalers in tribute, and the calling out, "Maaaaaammmmmmmmmm! Howsh that birthday cake for Gary coming?!" Then they are dipping their orange stained fingers into a family sized bag of Cheetoes.
I actually met Gary Gygax a few times, and found him to be a pretty friendly guy.
Contrary to the stereotype, a lot of successful and socially active people play role playing games. Of course, if we want stereotypes, we can always talk sports fans.
HEY!
Hi Will!
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 15:42:14
Will, I was after all being satirical.
I'm a 30 plus year D&D player.
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 15:42:14
Quote by Will in Chicago:Quote by Mondobubba:
He itsh Gary Gygax'ish birthday! Basement dwelling nerds are huffing on their inhalers in tribute, and the calling out, "Maaaaaammmmmmmmmm! Howsh that birthday cake for Gary coming?!" Then they are dipping their orange stained fingers into a family sized bag of Cheetoes.
I actually met Gary Gygax a few times, and found him to be a pretty friendly guy.
Contrary to the stereotype, a lot of successful and socially active people play role playing games. Of course, if we want stereotypes, we can always talk sports fans.
Will, I was after all being satirical.
I'm a 30 plus year D&D player.
Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 15:45:53
I could comment on people getting drunk watching grown men playing with their balls and bats. Of course, considering how the Chicago baseball teams do most years, maybe I should be glad that my Dad was indifferent to the game.
Incidentally, the annoying person on Kenny Pick's Facebook page had more to post on his claims on George Soros. I responded again.
Is it me, or do we have a community of people in this country who fear being contradicted by the facts above all else?
Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 15:45:53
Quote by Raine:Quote by Will in Chicago:Quote by Mondobubba:
He itsh Gary Gygax'ish birthday! Basement dwelling nerds are huffing on their inhalers in tribute, and the calling out, "Maaaaaammmmmmmmmm! Howsh that birthday cake for Gary coming?!" Then they are dipping their orange stained fingers into a family sized bag of Cheetoes.
I actually met Gary Gygax a few times, and found him to be a pretty friendly guy.
Contrary to the stereotype, a lot of successful and socially active people play role playing games. Of course, if we want stereotypes, we can always talk sports fans.
HEY!
Hi Will!
I could comment on people getting drunk watching grown men playing with their balls and bats. Of course, considering how the Chicago baseball teams do most years, maybe I should be glad that my Dad was indifferent to the game.
Incidentally, the annoying person on Kenny Pick's Facebook page had more to post on his claims on George Soros. I responded again.
Is it me, or do we have a community of people in this country who fear being contradicted by the facts above all else?
Comment by TriSec on 07/27/2011 15:47:09
TriSec on 07/27/2011 15:47:09
There's certainly an insult to Red Sox Nation somewhere in there.
< froths at mouth, insults Yankees and pink-hatters >
< froths at mouth, insults Yankees and pink-hatters >
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:47:47
It's seems more and more this is the case.
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:47:47
Quote by Will in Chicago:
Is it me, or do we have a community of people in this country who fear being contradicted by the facts above all else?
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 15:48:27
See what you did Will?
Raine on 07/27/2011 15:48:27
Quote by TriSec:
There's certainly an insult to Red Sox Nation somewhere in there.
< froths at mouth, insults Yankees and pink-hatters >
Comment by 
livingonli on 07/27/2011 15:55:33
livingonli on 07/27/2011 15:55:33
Good morning folks
I am still trying to determine whether Steve Doocy is dumber than Ted Baxter.
I am still trying to determine whether Steve Doocy is dumber than Ted Baxter.
Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 16:02:11
Neither Dad nor I got into baseball. He was first generation native born, the son of Scottish-Irish immigrants. My brother-in-law is a rarity, a South Side Cubs Fan -- his Dad was a Cubs Fan. I think that for most people, you have to be raised following a sport. (Dad followed the Bears and the Jordan era Bulls. I wish I had his chili recipe.)
As for the Boston Red Sox, I sympathize with their long suffering fans and their dedication. I joke that in Chicago, the team owners meet around New Years Day to bet who can run their team into the ground first.
TriSec, this is no time to get angry. No one likes anyone when they are angry.
Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 16:02:11
Quote by TriSec:
There's certainly an insult to Red Sox Nation somewhere in there.
< froths at mouth, insults Yankees and pink-hatters >
Neither Dad nor I got into baseball. He was first generation native born, the son of Scottish-Irish immigrants. My brother-in-law is a rarity, a South Side Cubs Fan -- his Dad was a Cubs Fan. I think that for most people, you have to be raised following a sport. (Dad followed the Bears and the Jordan era Bulls. I wish I had his chili recipe.)
As for the Boston Red Sox, I sympathize with their long suffering fans and their dedication. I joke that in Chicago, the team owners meet around New Years Day to bet who can run their team into the ground first.
TriSec, this is no time to get angry. No one likes anyone when they are angry.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 16:13:41
Raine on 07/27/2011 16:13:41
Interesting Discussion on the use of the 14th amendment, and why it may not be quite legal. Dave, btw is a lawyer in chicago -- he knows political law. @Dave_von_Ebers More like a Gordion Knot where the only safe solution is do what it takes to prevent default. read from the bottom up.
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ It’s a conundrum, that’s for sure.
3 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers Again. My point. My point is that I don't think the 14th amendment solution is a solution at all
4 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ Not sure how anyone would have standing to sue to enjoin default before it occurs.
4 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ Maybe, but of course it would be too late to prevent the harm of a default.
5 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers Exactly, and how do you do that? Default on the debt I guess and sue... uh... who exactly?
5 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ So there would have to be someone with legal standing to bring a claim against the federal government …
7 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ The only way to do that is to have an actual “case or controversy†– the Supreme Court doesn’t give advisory opinions.
7 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers BUt as you say, how do you pull that off. And even if they do you still have to force GOP to actually cut the checks.
9 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers The only thing I could possibly imagine is to some how get SCOTUS to rule on the constitutionality of the Debt ceiling
10 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers But back to the so-called 14th amendment solution, I don't think there's anything you can do...
11 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ Truth.
12 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
As @Dave_von_Ebers points out, the 14th am was written with a context davescornertavern.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-im… as were many others.
13 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers I know. I know. We're in a situation where the constitution isn't adequate, but we aren't mature enough to repair it.
14 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ Maybe so, but I fear for what might happen if we did. I could see people saying who needs 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th Amendments ...
14 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers Unfortunately at this time in this place I'm terrified of who would write it right now.
15 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers But, yeah, yet again I find myself thinking we are in need of rewriting the constitution. It just seems inadequate
16 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ That’s the question. I don’t know the answer.
17 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers I guess you keep spending regardless, but even then it comes down to the House holding the purse strings, doesn't it?
17 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers Ah, right. I see that, but at the same time, I just.. How? How do you just pretend it's not there any more?
18 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers Of course, this brings me to a drastic solution that Jefferson championed in his day; rewrite the constitution.
18 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
@
@PROTIPZ Real argument is that the debt ceiling itself is unconstitutional under Section 4, but there’s no good way to get a court ruling.
19 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
@
@Dave_von_Ebers And I don't think the POTUS can necessarily act on 14th without violating other parts of the constitution.
19 minutes ago
Dave_von_Ebers David von Ebers
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@PROTIPZ Right. The “solution†would be for the Pres. to ignore the debt ceiling, relying on Section 4.
20 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
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@Dave_von_Ebers The 14th amendment, read without interpretation, doesn't give any branch of government special power to act. It just IS.
21 minutes ago
PROTIPZ The REAL K✔
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@Dave_von_Ebers Here's my problem with a 14th amendment solution; it doesn't provide a vehicle, just a standard.
Comment by livingonli on 07/27/2011 16:16:40
livingonli on 07/27/2011 16:16:40
Only thing is the Chicago teams still get national exposure on WGN since it is the only superstation still showing baseball to a national audience still TBS relinquished the Braves to get that new MLB deal. Since WSBK, KWGN, and KTLA no longer have baseball deals, the only superstations still showing baseball are WWOR and WPIX here in New York and most of their national exposure is on Dish Network although WPIX is widely carried on Canadian cable and satellite.
Comment by livingonli on 07/27/2011 16:29:33
livingonli on 07/27/2011 16:29:33
Thom is talking about GOP voter suppression tactics as well.
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 17:23:51
Raine on 07/27/2011 17:23:51
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 17:32:45
That same column also has an interesting discussion of changes to Workers Comp that may be coming down the pike.
Really interesting.
Raine on 07/27/2011 17:32:45
Quote by Raine:
Does anyone remember Bunnatine "Bunny" Greenhouse? Her case is finally over.
Really interesting.
Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 17:57:47
Many of the superstations no longer seem to have any local presence. I would have no idea that TBS comes out of Atlanta as it now stands.
I suppose the national exposure helps the Cubs and the Sox, but it is a shame for baseball fans that it is harder to watch their games.
Will in Chicago on 07/27/2011 17:57:47
Quote by livingonli:
Only thing is the Chicago teams still get national exposure on WGN since it is the only superstation still showing baseball to a national audience still TBS relinquished the Braves to get that new MLB deal. Since WSBK, KWGN, and KTLA no longer have baseball deals, the only superstations still showing baseball are WWOR and WPIX here in New York and most of their national exposure is on Dish Network although WPIX is widely carried on Canadian cable and satellite.
Many of the superstations no longer seem to have any local presence. I would have no idea that TBS comes out of Atlanta as it now stands.
I suppose the national exposure helps the Cubs and the Sox, but it is a shame for baseball fans that it is harder to watch their games.
Comment by livingonli on 07/27/2011 18:08:45
In the fall of 2007, TBS was finally switched to just a cable network and the Atlanta station WTBS became WPCH which runs much of the same syndicated shows and still shows the Braves plus SEC College games. Many Canadian providers carry WPCH instead of TBS because CRTC carriage requirements were as a superstation and TBS as a cable channel is not approved for Canadian distribution but in the US, WPCH is just an Atlanta station now.
livingonli on 07/27/2011 18:08:45
Quote by Will in Chicago:Quote by livingonli:
Only thing is the Chicago teams still get national exposure on WGN since it is the only superstation still showing baseball to a national audience still TBS relinquished the Braves to get that new MLB deal. Since WSBK, KWGN, and KTLA no longer have baseball deals, the only superstations still showing baseball are WWOR and WPIX here in New York and most of their national exposure is on Dish Network although WPIX is widely carried on Canadian cable and satellite.
Many of the superstations no longer seem to have any local presence. I would have no idea that TBS comes out of Atlanta as it now stands.
I suppose the national exposure helps the Cubs and the Sox, but it is a shame for baseball fans that it is harder to watch their games.
In the fall of 2007, TBS was finally switched to just a cable network and the Atlanta station WTBS became WPCH which runs much of the same syndicated shows and still shows the Braves plus SEC College games. Many Canadian providers carry WPCH instead of TBS because CRTC carriage requirements were as a superstation and TBS as a cable channel is not approved for Canadian distribution but in the US, WPCH is just an Atlanta station now.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 18:14:12
Alex Pareene from Salon has some other Affleck movies for The Boner.
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 18:14:12
Quote by Raine:NSFWQuote by Raine:
They are disgusting, They really are, horrible wretched people.
According to the Washington Post, Rep. Allen West (R-FL) replied “I’m ready to drive the car.â€Â
In the movie, the characters then put on hockey masks and bludgeon two men with sticks, then shoot one man in the leg.
THIS is Eric Cantor.
Alex Pareene from Salon has some other Affleck movies for The Boner.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 18:34:38
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 18:34:38
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 18:34:44
Raine on 07/27/2011 18:34:44
Comment by BobR on 07/27/2011 18:49:56
I've been in Pittsfield, MA... in January. It was effin cold.
BobR on 07/27/2011 18:49:56
I've been in Pittsfield, MA... in January. It was effin cold.
Comment by TriSec on 07/27/2011 19:11:50
TriSec on 07/27/2011 19:11:50
That's right where the tornadoes hit in the outbreak on June 1...some of the same areas were hit again.
No climate change to see here. Keep moving.
No climate change to see here. Keep moving.
Comment by TriSec on 07/27/2011 19:51:25
So, are they officially a third party now?
TriSec on 07/27/2011 19:51:25
Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
So, are they officially a third party now?
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 19:56:03
You are funny, Tri.
Raine on 07/27/2011 19:56:03
Quote by TriSec:Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
So, are they officially a third party now?
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 20:04:17
Meckler derided Boehner's plan as "phantom cuts" that Congress could reverse in future years. He also said he was not worried about hitting the debt ceiling, and called the possibility of the federal government defaulting on its loans a "myth that has been pretty much debunked."
Oh really? By whom?
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 20:04:17
Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
Meckler derided Boehner's plan as "phantom cuts" that Congress could reverse in future years. He also said he was not worried about hitting the debt ceiling, and called the possibility of the federal government defaulting on its loans a "myth that has been pretty much debunked."
Oh really? By whom?
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 20:05:58
Speaking of third parties, David Sirota wrote something about them. For about the first time in about a year he hasn't made by head explode with whining.
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 20:05:58
Quote by TriSec:Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
So, are they officially a third party now?
Speaking of third parties, David Sirota wrote something about them. For about the first time in about a year he hasn't made by head explode with whining.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 20:16:05
I mean who doesn't like beating up on Thomas Friedman? He and porn-stache are such an easy fun target.
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 20:16:05
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by TriSec:Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
So, are they officially a third party now?
Speaking of third parties, David Sirota wrote something about them. For about the first time in about a year he hasn't made by head explode with whining.
I mean who doesn't like beating up on Thomas Friedman? He and porn-stache are such an easy fun target.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:15:42
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:15:42
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:32:42
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:32:42
How on the ball is OFA? On the text message I got to call my Congress Critter, it had Crenshaw's office number, not the switchboard number. Well done!
Comment by Raine on 07/27/2011 21:32:47
It was debunked by the waterboarded fairies and tears of pixies.
Raine on 07/27/2011 21:32:47
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
Meckler derided Boehner's plan as "phantom cuts" that Congress could reverse in future years. He also said he was not worried about hitting the debt ceiling, and called the possibility of the federal government defaulting on its loans a "myth that has been pretty much debunked."
Oh really? By whom?
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:53:55
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:53:55
Quote by Raine:It was debunked by the waterboarded fairies and tears of pixies.Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:
Tea Party leader calls for Boner to step down....
Meckler derided Boehner's plan as "phantom cuts" that Congress could reverse in future years. He also said he was not worried about hitting the debt ceiling, and called the possibility of the federal government defaulting on its loans a "myth that has been pretty much debunked."
Oh really? By whom?
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:57:45
Mondobubba on 07/27/2011 21:57:45
Hey do you know who the Shadow Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is? I do. Thank you BBC!
Comment by Raine on 07/28/2011 00:54:38
Raine on 07/28/2011 00:54:38
I'm just gonna put this out there. There are some people out there that think this crisis is *manufactured* -- but they are also putting it out there that they thing the POTUS has made it up.
This is despite the fact that he has been saying this is critical, for you know, -- WEEKS. This is a crisis.
I posted something down thread about it, and I decided to do a littIe personal research on the validity of using the 14th.
I've come to the early conclusion (and that could change) that he can't use the can use the 14th, because the 14th doesn't really give the any branch of government special power to act upon public debt. It just is. I say this WRT section 4, the one I believe many people are referring to:
Sadly, from what I understand, and I am willing to be wrong, it comes down to the House holding the purse strings. THEY are responsible for this. POTUS can only make suggestions. He really doesn't have such authority in the 14th to go around congress without stepping on the constitution itself. the 14th doesn't appear to specifically state that POTUS can do this.
Article 1, Section 8 of the USA Constitution states:
It appears to me that the president can only suggest, and even propose legislation, but ultimately, it's the House that needs to get this done.
It's the big problem I had with Harry Reid's *Super Congress* idea. It usurps the idea of the 2 houses of congress. Article 1, Section 7 states:
This is despite the fact that he has been saying this is critical, for you know, -- WEEKS. This is a crisis.
I posted something down thread about it, and I decided to do a littIe personal research on the validity of using the 14th.
I've come to the early conclusion (and that could change) that he can't use the can use the 14th, because the 14th doesn't really give the any branch of government special power to act upon public debt. It just is. I say this WRT section 4, the one I believe many people are referring to:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.[/div] I don't know if POTUS can act without without stepping on other parts of the constitution.
Sadly, from what I understand, and I am willing to be wrong, it comes down to the House holding the purse strings. THEY are responsible for this. POTUS can only make suggestions. He really doesn't have such authority in the 14th to go around congress without stepping on the constitution itself. the 14th doesn't appear to specifically state that POTUS can do this.
Article 1, Section 8 of the USA Constitution states:
Section 8.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
It's the big problem I had with Harry Reid's *Super Congress* idea. It usurps the idea of the 2 houses of congress. Article 1, Section 7 states:
Section 7.
All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.
Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.
Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.