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Intervention
Author: BobR
Date: 03/30/2011 12:55:59
noun: interposition or interference of one state in the affairs of another.
The current military action going on in Libya has had a polarizing effect on the American people. While most people are supportive on some level, there's been a lot of "why here? why now?" and "how much?" questions. These questions are valid, but it seems like the information is out there if you seek it. Those most critical, though, have already made up their minds and are not likely to be persuaded. I will not try to persuade, but here is how I see it...
In the past, there have been situations where even people on the left who typically abhor the use of any sort of military force have wondered why we don't use our military strength to help the oppressed. There have been times we have (Kosovo) and times we haven't (Rwanda), so the "why here, why now?" question is valid. Then there is the hawkish side of the debate wondering why the military mission isn't "more clearly stated"; in other words - why doesn't it clearly say "Take out Gadhafi"? The short answer - because that isn't the military mission (ie: it's not in the UN resolution).
The first question has led to a false choice of "why not intervene in every country where there is oppression?" The implication is that we should be intervening in all of them or none at all. This is based on a false assumption that all situations are the same. The sometimes spoken (oft hinted) conspiracy theory is that it is about oil. There are numerous reasons that this is occurring in Libya right now:
- Previous alternatives were tried (economic sanctions, diplomatic advances, shaming) and found not to be effective
- The rebels in Libya asked for an intervention
- The UN created a resolution to create the no-fly zone, and enforce it. This is exactly the sort of thing the UN was created for - getting countries to cooperate with one another and enforcing rules when they don't
- There was an immediate threat of massive casualties if nothing was done.
- There is nowhere for refugees to go to escape (Egypt and Tunisia are both in the midst of their own political reorganizations)
Would those who protest the use of force be willing to see tens of thousands of Libyans die? We did nothing in Rwanda, resulting in a horrific genocide, something former president Clinton refers to as the biggest regret of his presidency. Would the people now protesting the intervention in Libya also have protested the use of the military in Rwanda? The problem of course is that one never knows what will happen if nothing is done. Perhaps the deaths in Libya would not be "excessive" if nothing was done. Is that a gamble worth taking?
Another comment I've heard is "why aren't we doing anything in the Ivory Coast? Oh yeah - they don't have oil...". The unreported reality is that we are taking similar steps there that we took in Libya prior to the military intervention:
On Friday, France and Nigeria circulated a draft resolution in the U.N. Security Council, imposing sanctions on Laurent Gbagbo, the incumbent president who has refused to step down, and his advisers. The resolution will also stop heavy weapons from entering the capital, Abidjan.
[...]
The resolution also calls for Gbagbo to go and for the International Criminal Court and U.N. human rights chief to report on alleged human rights violations inside the country.
[...]
The 10,000 U.N. peacekeepers in Ivory Coast have been given a robust mandate to engage forces attacking civilians, but they are still unable to cope with the situation. In the past few months, they have also been attacked.
Khare said that the U.N. is treating hundreds of wounded but needs a surgical team.
Egypt was a unique situation. There were initally concerns that we might need to intervene if violence against the protesters escalated from the police to the army. However, in that case, the army acted as the peacekeepers, keeping the protesters and the police from inflicting too much violence upon one another. In this way, the Egyptian army performed the role the NATO forces are performing in Libya. Obviously, though the roles are the same, the necessary actions to perform them are quite different.
There are other areas, particularly in the Middle East where despotic rulers are suppressing protests and killing their own people. Why don't we intervene there?
- There are no UN resolutions to give legitimacy to any military action
- There is not an immediate threat of mass casualties
- Diplomatic solutions have not yet been exhausted
Ultimately, I would prefer to err on the side of caution. We waited until very late to get involved in WWII while a holocaust was occurring. We didn't intervene in Rwanda when a genocide was occurring. I would hate to see massive death and regret as result of standing by and doing nothing while a psychopathic megalomaniac anhilates his own people.
Comments:
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Comment by 
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:05:16
good morning.
Excellent blog, Bob. I am not happy about the situation in Libya, but I do agree with you.
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:05:16
good morning.Excellent blog, Bob. I am not happy about the situation in Libya, but I do agree with you.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 13:09:37
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:09:37
It's VERY important to note that in Egypt, there are a UN peacekeeping forces as a result of the Suez Canal crisis in 1981.
Much of the egyptian army were trained by them.
Much of the egyptian army were trained by them.
Comment by 
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 13:10:33
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 13:10:33
Morning 
Comment by 
TriSec on 03/30/2011 13:21:35
TriSec on 03/30/2011 13:21:35
Morning, folks!
It's time for TriSec's "one word movie review".
Today's film: Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ"
The word is....unwatchable.
Not because of the advertised gore; I found it to be disjointed, nonlinear, bizarre flashback sequences, poor cinematography, and sometimes difficult to follow subtitles (including lengthy sequences with none at all.)
And given the number of slo-mo sequences and extreme close-ups....Mel Gibson has an unhealthy obsession with Christ's Blood.
It's time for TriSec's "one word movie review".
Today's film: Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ"
The word is....unwatchable.
Not because of the advertised gore; I found it to be disjointed, nonlinear, bizarre flashback sequences, poor cinematography, and sometimes difficult to follow subtitles (including lengthy sequences with none at all.)
And given the number of slo-mo sequences and extreme close-ups....Mel Gibson has an unhealthy obsession with Christ's Blood.
Comment by 
Scoopster on 03/30/2011 13:32:01
Scoopster on 03/30/2011 13:32:01
Mornin' all & Happy Humpdee! 
Comment by 
BobR on 03/30/2011 13:43:34
That goes without saying for the Christian faith in general and Catholics in particular... "the blood of Christ", "this is my blood you drink, this is my body you eat", transubstantiation...
It's a blood cult, really.
BobR on 03/30/2011 13:43:34
Quote by TriSec:
...And given the number of slo-mo sequences and extreme close-ups....Mel Gibson has an unhealthy obsession with Christ's Blood.
That goes without saying for the Christian faith in general and Catholics in particular... "the blood of Christ", "this is my blood you drink, this is my body you eat", transubstantiation...
It's a blood cult, really.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 13:44:30
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:44:30
Did anyone catch Frontline last night?
Short and interesting, and strange. However, it seems to me that MAnning should not have been placed in the intelligence wing of the army.
Short and interesting, and strange. However, it seems to me that MAnning should not have been placed in the intelligence wing of the army.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 13:46:07
Sound bite off!
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:46:07
Sound bite off!
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 13:46:32
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:46:32
YAY David Bender is guesting! 
him.
him.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 13:52:32
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:52:32
AWWWW..... 
Comment by TriSec on 03/30/2011 13:52:35
TriSec on 03/30/2011 13:52:35
I wish I knew what "29 for no wicket in the 6th over" meant. (BBC).
Probably as coherent as 3-2, bottom of the ninth, 2 on, 2 out.
Probably as coherent as 3-2, bottom of the ninth, 2 on, 2 out.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 13:59:14
Raine on 03/30/2011 13:59:14
Something I heard this morning makes me VERY uncomfortable.
The Government has expelled five diplomats from the Libyan embassy in London because they 'could pose a threat' to national security.
The move was revealed by William Hague in another emergency statement on the military action to the Commons this afternoon.
The Foreign Secretary told MPs the five included the military attache as he updated the House on yesterday's summit in the capital.
His statement came after David Cameron said during PMQs that Britain had not ruled out providing arms to rebels in the country.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:09:17
Welcome Strength! Thanks for taking time to read it!
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:09:17
Quote by Strength:
Thanks for posting this, I couldn't agree more with your assessment. Too much misinformation out there about how the President is handling this, and not enough of what's really going on in Libya. This nails it. Those of us who pay attention, know this.
Comment by Scoopster on 03/30/2011 14:09:30
We haven't ruled out arming the rebels either.. which is a little disturbing.
Scoopster on 03/30/2011 14:09:30
Quote by Raine:
Something I heard this morning makes me VERY uncomfortable.The Government has expelled five diplomats from the Libyan embassy in London because they 'could pose a threat' to national security.
The move was revealed by William Hague in another emergency statement on the military action to the Commons this afternoon.
The Foreign Secretary told MPs the five included the military attache as he updated the House on yesterday's summit in the capital.
His statement came after David Cameron said during PMQs that Britain had not ruled out providing arms to rebels in the country.
We haven't ruled out arming the rebels either.. which is a little disturbing.
Comment by Scoopster on 03/30/2011 14:09:53
Scoopster on 03/30/2011 14:09:53
Welcome to el bloggerino Strength! 
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:13:16
Ugh I just read that.
I'm pretty sure that is not part of the UN resolution. Maybe this is a bluff?
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:13:16
Quote by Scoopster:
We haven't ruled out arming the rebels either.. which is a little disturbing.
I'm pretty sure that is not part of the UN resolution. Maybe this is a bluff?
Comment by wickedpam on 03/30/2011 14:15:58
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 14:15:58
Hey Strength, welcome to our cozy corner of the internet 
Comment by BobR on 03/30/2011 14:18:38
Welcome!
BobR on 03/30/2011 14:18:38
Quote by Strength:
Thanks for posting this, I couldn't agree more with your assessment. Too much misinformation out there about how the President is handling this, and not enough of what's really going on in Libya. This nails it. Those of us who pay attention, know this.
Welcome!
Comment by 
velveeta jones on 03/30/2011 14:34:52
velveeta jones on 03/30/2011 14:34:52
I just took a shower with Stephanie Miller. *tee heeee* *snicker* 
Great post Bobber!
Great post Bobber!
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:35:13
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:35:13
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:38:21
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:38:21
Of course there is propaganda-- but to always assume that everything is nefarious is tiring.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:40:03
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:40:03
Richmond Virginia IS FAR from a suburb of DC.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:41:20
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:41:20
I would love to know the source of what Jim just read on air.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:44:58
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:44:58
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:46:36
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:46:36
Uganda has offered to take Gaddafi should he leave.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:48:19
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:48:19
Comment by wickedpam on 03/30/2011 14:48:55
like an hour and half away from me and I'm about an hour outside of DC - how squished together does Jim thing VA is?
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 14:48:55
Quote by Raine:
Richmond Virginia IS FAR from a suburb of DC.
like an hour and half away from me and I'm about an hour outside of DC - how squished together does Jim thing VA is?
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 14:53:40
Not sure.
But based on what I read (I found the link he read on air) I don;t think he cares. He is trying to say that the CIA trained the guy who just went back to Libya. Even Langley is pretty far from Richmond....
Raine on 03/30/2011 14:53:40
Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:
Richmond Virginia IS FAR from a suburb of DC.
like an hour and half away from me and I'm about an hour outside of DC - how squished together does Jim thing VA is?
But based on what I read (I found the link he read on air) I don;t think he cares. He is trying to say that the CIA trained the guy who just went back to Libya. Even Langley is pretty far from Richmond....
Comment by Scoopster on 03/30/2011 14:55:41
There's still some minor debate that reactors 5 & 6 may be brought back online temporarily at some point to help alleviate the electricity crisis that's been caused by this whole mess.. but yeah 1-4 are done.
One of the big things being debated now is how to temporarily contain the radiation, because it's becoming very clear that it will be a long while before things are cooled & under control, at which point it can be permanently sealed.
I found this image on one of the Japanese news sites which looks like a proposal to cover the reactor housings with barriers (probably aluminium which would contain alpha/beta radiation and prevent it from spreading on the wind as much). The containment water leaking is a bigger mess, but on here it looks like there's a proposal to use a tanker barge to drain & contain it.
Scoopster on 03/30/2011 14:55:41
Quote by Raine:
Japan to scrap stricken reactors
I can't believe this was even up for debate.
There's still some minor debate that reactors 5 & 6 may be brought back online temporarily at some point to help alleviate the electricity crisis that's been caused by this whole mess.. but yeah 1-4 are done.
One of the big things being debated now is how to temporarily contain the radiation, because it's becoming very clear that it will be a long while before things are cooled & under control, at which point it can be permanently sealed.
I found this image on one of the Japanese news sites which looks like a proposal to cover the reactor housings with barriers (probably aluminium which would contain alpha/beta radiation and prevent it from spreading on the wind as much). The containment water leaking is a bigger mess, but on here it looks like there's a proposal to use a tanker barge to drain & contain it.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/30/2011 15:03:55
Langley my fave place in the area the only CIA building I know that has actual signs pointing too it.
There's lots of stuff that going on around here that's classified and stuff we won't know about for years on end but not everything is a conspiracy.
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 15:03:55
Quote by Raine:Not sure.Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:
Richmond Virginia IS FAR from a suburb of DC.
like an hour and half away from me and I'm about an hour outside of DC - how squished together does Jim thing VA is?
But based on what I read (I found the link he read on air) I don;t think he cares. He is trying to say that the CIA trained the guy who just went back to Libya. Even Langley is pretty far from Richmond....
Langley my fave place in the area the only CIA building I know that has actual signs pointing too it.
There's lots of stuff that going on around here that's classified and stuff we won't know about for years on end but not everything is a conspiracy.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:08:13
That's the point.
I have no beef with Chris, I find myself agreeing with him more than not -- He can be to logical for me at time,
What I don;t believe is that everything has an ulterior motive. Jim seems to be getting more and more conspiratorial, and if that is the case, then fine, but he should reveal his sources.
I think that is fair.
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:08:13
Quote by wickedpam:
Langley my fave place in the area the only CIA building I know that has actual signs pointing too it.
There's lots of stuff that going on around here that's classified and stuff we won't know about for years on end but not everything is a conspiracy.
I have no beef with Chris, I find myself agreeing with him more than not -- He can be to logical for me at time,
What I don;t believe is that everything has an ulterior motive. Jim seems to be getting more and more conspiratorial, and if that is the case, then fine, but he should reveal his sources.
I think that is fair.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:09:02
What a mess. Thanks for that information, Scoop.
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:09:02
Quote by Scoopster:Quote by Raine:
Japan to scrap stricken reactors
I can't believe this was even up for debate.
There's still some minor debate that reactors 5 & 6 may be brought back online temporarily at some point to help alleviate the electricity crisis that's been caused by this whole mess.. but yeah 1-4 are done.
One of the big things being debated now is how to temporarily contain the radiation, because it's becoming very clear that it will be a long while before things are cooled & under control, at which point it can be permanently sealed.
I found this image on one of the Japanese news sites which looks like a proposal to cover the reactor housings with barriers (probably aluminium which would contain alpha/beta radiation and prevent it from spreading on the wind as much). The containment water leaking is a bigger mess, but on here it looks like there's a proposal to use a tanker barge to drain & contain it.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:13:09
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:13:09
TRump's mother was born is Scotland --
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:26:03
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:26:03
This is getting stupid.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/30/2011 15:28:43
blah, blah, blah 
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 15:28:43
blah, blah, blah
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:30:23
Keerist, is it me or is Jim making this totally Black and White?
I'm really REALLY getting tired of this.
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:30:23
Quote by wickedpam:
I'm really REALLY getting tired of this.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:35:20
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:35:20
It's the NATURE and Tone of the discussing that's irritating me.
With Jim it seems like he's trying to prove his point is superior. It seems like unless Momma comes out and says something negative about Obama she is just a shill.
What ever happened to Nuance and honest debate about issues? One can disagree without always being negative.
The one thing I have learned with this administration is that I wait a few days or so before I judge. The other thing I have said right from the beginning of it, is that I truly believe this administration doesn't have the same motives as the previous.
With Jim it seems like he's trying to prove his point is superior. It seems like unless Momma comes out and says something negative about Obama she is just a shill.
What ever happened to Nuance and honest debate about issues? One can disagree without always being negative.
The one thing I have learned with this administration is that I wait a few days or so before I judge. The other thing I have said right from the beginning of it, is that I truly believe this administration doesn't have the same motives as the previous.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/30/2011 15:36:05
no it's not just you
wickedpam on 03/30/2011 15:36:05
Quote by Raine:Keerist, is it me or is Jim making this totally Black and White?Quote by wickedpam:
I'm really REALLY getting tired of this.
no it's not just you
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:41:03
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:41:03
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 15:41:24
Raine on 03/30/2011 15:41:24
Comment by BobR on 03/30/2011 15:50:22
BobR on 03/30/2011 15:50:22
Comment by 
livingonli on 03/30/2011 16:20:31
livingonli on 03/30/2011 16:20:31
Good day everyone. Finally emerged from my slumber.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 16:23:03
Welcome, slumber free one!
Raine on 03/30/2011 16:23:03
Quote by livingonli:
Good day everyone. Finally emerged from my slumber.
Comment by livingonli on 03/30/2011 17:16:44
livingonli on 03/30/2011 17:16:44
Thom arguing with the T. Boone Pickens guy. Righties really are just oblivious to facts.
Comment by 
Mondobubba on 03/30/2011 17:43:36
Yeah I saw that. Didn't kind of come as a unstable nutter?
Mondobubba on 03/30/2011 17:43:36
Quote by Raine:
Did anyone catch Frontline last night?
Short and interesting, and strange. However, it seems to me that MAnning should not have been placed in the intelligence wing of the army.
Yeah I saw that. Didn't kind of come as a unstable nutter?
Comment by BobR on 03/30/2011 17:55:33
Well - yes...
His father came off as a self-centered asshole...
His mother came off as disinterested...
His step-mother came off as wanting to have the asshole dad all to herself...
And Manning himself appeared to be one of those "troubled youths" that joined the Army because his other options didn't work out. The fact that he ran into trouble in the Army, and they still kept him at that post reflects very badly on the Army.
BobR on 03/30/2011 17:55:33
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:
Did anyone catch Frontline last night?
Short and interesting, and strange. However, it seems to me that MAnning should not have been placed in the intelligence wing of the army.
Yeah I saw that. Didn't kind of come as a unstable nutter?
Well - yes...
His father came off as a self-centered asshole...
His mother came off as disinterested...
His step-mother came off as wanting to have the asshole dad all to herself...
And Manning himself appeared to be one of those "troubled youths" that joined the Army because his other options didn't work out. The fact that he ran into trouble in the Army, and they still kept him at that post reflects very badly on the Army.
Comment by Mondobubba on 03/30/2011 18:08:22
His daddy said he needed "structure." Clearly he's bright guy, when he took the ASVB (the vocational tests they give to ree-croots) I'm sure he scored high on the "hey this guy should be doing intelligence related work" part of the test. They kept him because the Army needs people. Even if they are flighty and have authority issues. Kinda like the way they will take guys with white power tattoos.
Mondobubba on 03/30/2011 18:08:22
Quote by BobR:Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:
Did anyone catch Frontline last night?
Short and interesting, and strange. However, it seems to me that MAnning should not have been placed in the intelligence wing of the army.
Yeah I saw that. Didn't kind of come as a unstable nutter?
Well - yes...
His father came off as a self-centered asshole...
His mother came off as disinterested...
His step-mother came off as wanting to have the asshole dad all to herself...
And Manning himself appeared to be one of those "troubled youths" that joined the Army because his other options didn't work out. The fact that he ran into trouble in the Army, and they still kept him at that post reflects very badly on the Army.
His daddy said he needed "structure." Clearly he's bright guy, when he took the ASVB (the vocational tests they give to ree-croots) I'm sure he scored high on the "hey this guy should be doing intelligence related work" part of the test. They kept him because the Army needs people. Even if they are flighty and have authority issues. Kinda like the way they will take guys with white power tattoos.
Comment by TriSec on 03/30/2011 18:08:51
TriSec on 03/30/2011 18:08:51
TriSec is going to do battle with City Hall this evening...there is a traffic hearing concerning the main thoroughfare in my neighborhood. Word is they're planning on banning all on-street parking.
Whether they knew about the hearing or not, Waltham's Finest have ensured a contentious meeting...they've been out ticketing the past two nights.
Of course, this has been an ongoing problem since we moved in 15 years ago.
Whether they knew about the hearing or not, Waltham's Finest have ensured a contentious meeting...they've been out ticketing the past two nights.
Of course, this has been an ongoing problem since we moved in 15 years ago.
Comment by Raine on 03/30/2011 18:13:01
His father was kindof a dickweed, I think. I still think this guy should never have been placed where he was.
I'm sorry guys, I am not on team Manning. I know Greg Mitchell -- who I deeply respect-- wrote a book about this, but I wonder if he actually interviewed him. THAT said, as far as his treatment, I am still waiting for one journalist to interview any number of corrections officers to see how prisoners are treated when they are put on suicide watch.
Raine on 03/30/2011 18:13:01
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by BobR:Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:
Did anyone catch Frontline last night?
Short and interesting, and strange. However, it seems to me that MAnning should not have been placed in the intelligence wing of the army.
Yeah I saw that. Didn't kind of come as a unstable nutter?
Well - yes...
His father came off as a self-centered asshole...
His mother came off as disinterested...
His step-mother came off as wanting to have the asshole dad all to herself...
And Manning himself appeared to be one of those "troubled youths" that joined the Army because his other options didn't work out. The fact that he ran into trouble in the Army, and they still kept him at that post reflects very badly on the Army.
His daddy said he needed "structure." Clearly he's bright guy, when he took the ASVB (the vocational tests they give to ree-croots) I'm sure he scored high on the "hey this guy should be doing intelligence related work" part of the test. They kept him because the Army needs people. Even if they are flighty and have authority issues. Kinda like the way they will take guys with white power tattoos.
His father was kindof a dickweed, I think. I still think this guy should never have been placed where he was.
I'm sorry guys, I am not on team Manning. I know Greg Mitchell -- who I deeply respect-- wrote a book about this, but I wonder if he actually interviewed him. THAT said, as far as his treatment, I am still waiting for one journalist to interview any number of corrections officers to see how prisoners are treated when they are put on suicide watch.