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When there was no choice, can you still choose?
Author: Raine    Date: 03/13/2013 13:59:50

Kathleen Hoy Foley was 16, alone and pregnant from a rape in 1964 when she decided to put the baby up for adoption, intending to forever close that chapter of her life.

“The day I walked out of that hospital, it was the day it ended for me,” Foley, now 65, told the Daily News. “I was emancipated. I truly believed I was free.”

She wasn’t.

More than 30 years later, the child defied the odds and found her, shattering the life Foley had created and forcing her to reveal a dark piece of her past that she had wanted to keep hidden from her grown daughters and husband.
Abortion was illegal back then, and rape was something no one discussed. Years later the child now grown wanted to meet her biological mother. She was rejected.
Penn, now age 48, became interested in meeting her birth parents after having her own child in 1996. First she found out that her biological father was dead and then she was rejected by Foley. She admitted to the New York Daily News that her mom’s reaction was like “a knife to my heart.”

“It’s really sad,” Penn added. “It is very hard for somebody in this time to put their brain back in 1964 in that society. I’ve never experienced it. But I would hope that whatever happens in that situation that at this point, I would get myself help and I wouldn’t take it out on the person I gave birth to.”


So here we have a victim of rape who decided to get going with living her life in the best possible way she could considering the times, and an adopted child - now a woman - who wanted to meet her biological mother.
Foley was contacted by the unwanted child she put up for adoption 15 years ago. How Elaine Penn found her birth mom is questionable. Foley claims Penn hired a private investigator and that Catholic Charities unlawfully passed over important information. With a closed adoption the birth certificate is supposed to remain sealed and the birth mom’s name never revealed.

Elaine denies hiring an investigator and says she found leads in public documents. She first made contact with Foley’s lawyer who ended up being her biological mom’s son-in-law.

Even though Penn has reached out to her mom several times over the past 15 years, the two haven’t met in person. Foley, now age 65, doesn’t want to ever meet her daughter and she has become an advocate for women who have given up a child and prefer to remain anonymous.
Where does one's right to privacy end? Ms. Foley was given little or no choice after she was raped. Birth control was not available to women, abortion was not available. She was pregnant and had to decide whether to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Her privacy had been invaded and she was yet again forced to make a decision. This time she chose to not meet her biological daughter.

Almost 50 years later, we can see the progress from women who fought for and got the right to choose when and how they would give birth. We have access to birth control. We speak out in cases of rape and incest. We are less apprehensive to do so as the stigma isn't as severe as it was forty years ago. In 1964, Kathleen Hoy Foley had none of these options. This entire situation is a perfect illustration of how important it is for women to have a choice.

I cannot identify with what it may be like to be an adopted child, but I take issue with Ms.Penn. In her quest to find her 'biological mother', she violated the little choice her mother once had. Meeting and finding the adoptee should have been Kathleen Hoy Foley's choice to make -- choice being something she was denied many years ago. She was raped at the age of 16 and now at the age of 65 she is trying to protect the rights she now has. She is protecting her right -- and the rights of others who were forced to give birth so many years ago: the right to choose privacy. Ms. Foley writes:
Today, these aging women, including frail elderly women, are enduring egregious abuse from State governments that are opening court sealed adoption records and intimidating these women into forfeiting private medical and personal histories to stranger-adoptees.

Adoption agencies are placing aging and elder women at extreme physical and emotional risk by releasing deeply intimate and identifying details to strangers claiming rights as adoptees. (Betrayal by Catholic Charities permanently ended my life--and the lives of my family--as I knew it.)

Adoptees seeking to satisfy their own curiosity, some looking for revenge, are hunting down and ambushing elder women and their families, dismissing as unimportant the damage and destruction they create. (Among many cruelties, the stranger-adoptee in my situation posted my 80 year old mother's name on the internet, along with accusatory sexual insinuations.)

Despite whatever irreversible consequences may occur, society, via the media, insists on romanticizing this trend of pursuing women and forcing public exposure of past traumas.

Socially and politically this sanctioned abuse and punishment of aging and elderly women is disguised as a human rights issue for those who were placed into adoption.

Left without social support and legal options, it is, sadly, up to the woman in hiding to protect herself the best way she can.


“It’s really sad,” Penn added. “It is very hard for somebody in this time to put their brain back in 1964 in that society. I’ve never experienced it. But I would hope that whatever happens in that situation that at this point, I would get myself help and I wouldn’t take it out on the person I gave birth to.”
After all of this, Ms. Penn appears to be rather callous, in my opinion. She has become an adoption rights activist, and her supporters are ostracizing Ms.Foley, saying she's too 'wacky, crazy and hateful'. Ms. Penn is trying to pass laws in NJ forcing adoption records to be opened -- even closed adoptions. Let's take a look at the other side of this again. Ms. Foley has an entry in her blog from 2009:
I never knew I had a choice. Never knew that I did not have to accept being violated by that despicable stigma affixed to me as a teenager. Birth mother—a slur that branded me a slut; a whore. The label that blamed me for getting pregnant from rape. The label that ignored the rapes; turned my torment into a hot and heavy teenage romance with me unable to keep my legs closed.

Getting pregnant was what I deserved for wanton sexual escapades. Just punishment for my sexual lust. I was to confess my sin—I did. Do my penance—I did extra just to make sure. And my sins and my secret shame would be washed away by a confidential adoption. That is what they promised—Catholic Charities; my mother. Do my penance and I would be free. I believed them.

Over thirty years later my confidential records were breached and a stranger—the adoptee—was wreaking havoc in our lives. Which is why Phil was on the phone with our attorney and I was listening to him say what I had never in my entire life heard before. There in our kitchen, that tiny moment in time, me fifty years old, I slowly began to see that I was not required to stigmatize myself any longer; that I did not have to join society and continue to condemn myself with the label Birth Mother; a label so vile, it made me retch.

I looked up at Phil when he sat down at the table across from me.

“Rape is not making love,” I finally managed, giving voice to what I had never been able to speak aloud. “Being forced to breed did not make me a mother. They don’t call girls who had abortions, mothers.”
When there was no choice, Ms. Foley was forced to take the lessor of two evils. When faced with an unwanted confrontation years later, she chooses not to meet the person she gave up for adoption. We have seen a generational shift when it comes to women's rights, but I believe we need to be more sensitive to the generations that came before us. They have a right to their history as well. As we go forward, fighting for equality, we would be wise to pay attention to our history and be sensitive to it -- it involves people who are living and breathing it every day. Some may never have gotten over it -- and they should not be forced to, especially based on other people's expectations. It should be a choice as to how and when - or if ever - we deal with our life events, both the wonderful and the horrible.

and
Raiine

86 comments (Latest Comment: 03/14/2013 04:20:46 by livingonli)
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Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 13:12:27
Morning


Caption: "You'll catch me, right?"

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 13:35:40
Ninja kittehs!

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 13:51:29
Kittehs have seen too many kung fu movies.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 14:09:09
I got really annoyed at a RWT last night. he was commenting on a friend's FB post with crap about Dan Rather and Tang (I dunno) and I replied with, 'You seem pretty obsessed with Dan Rather. Do you want him to suck your dick?" I feel guilty. Should I be guilty?

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 14:18:24
Morning, comrades.

Adoptions these days come in two flavors, "Open" or "Closed".

An Open adoption is the newfangled one. Often, the birth mother will meet with prospective adoptive parents, give final approval, and may or may not be involved in the child's care. (usually just visitation rights.)

A Closed adoption is just that, the birth mother plays no role in the decision, and rescinds all rights to the child, and usually has the paperwork sealed so she can't be tracked back to at a later date.

Like everything else, there is often a grey zone between the two.

Javier has a double - it's an International Adoption (the rules are slightly different) and was completely closed. We know the birth mother's name, but nothing else.



Comment by Scoopster on 03/13/2013 14:19:14
Mornin' all..

Jeez the Bruins really blew that game last night.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 14:28:17
Quote by Scoopster:
Mornin' all..

Jeez the Bruins really blew that game last night.



Heh. The Celtics were also channeling the Red Sox, I noticed. Charlotte? by 25 points?



Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 14:29:32
Oh, and Scoop...let's connect on that medicine. I seem to have taken a turn for the worse this past weekend, PT/OT is having limited benefits. (and in some areas, it's actually worse than when I started.)

Apensuwi at Gmail, for a direct-connect.



Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 14:30:26
Blog is up!

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 14:36:42
Quote by TriSec:
Morning, comrades.

Adoptions these days come in two flavors, "Open" or "Closed".

An Open adoption is the newfangled one. Often, the birth mother will meet with prospective adoptive parents, give final approval, and may or may not be involved in the child's care. (usually just visitation rights.)

A Closed adoption is just that, the birth mother plays no role in the decision, and rescinds all rights to the child, and usually has the paperwork sealed so she can't be tracked back to at a later date.

Like everything else, there is often a grey zone between the two.

Javier has a double - it's an International Adoption (the rules are slightly different) and was completely closed. We know the birth mother's name, but nothing else.

This woman had a closed adoption, that is why I find this all so messy. My uncles both had closed adoptions.

I think this is the crux of things, women 40-50-60 years ago should be the ones to choose if they want to open up the adoption records. It's something I think that my generation isn;t willing to understand -- those women never really had a choice like we do now. We should respect this.

Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/13/2013 14:38:53
Good morning, bloggers!!

Raine, this is a very powerful blog. I think that Ms. Foley's privacy rights were violated.

No right in a society should be absolute. I do not think that an adopted child, in general, has a right to find out who is a parent. (I suppose an argument can be made against this position in case of a severe medical emergency, but this is most likely a theoretical objection. I suspect that there would be very few cases like this.)

We need to stop stigmatizing people who have to make difficult choices. As a man, I am annoyed that some other men believe that they can make medical decisions for mentally competent adult women.

Comment by trojanrabbit on 03/13/2013 14:40:01
Quote by TriSec:
Quote by Scoopster:
Mornin' all..

Jeez the Bruins really blew that game last night.



Heh. The Celtics were also channeling the Red Sox, I noticed. Charlotte? by 25 points?



That'll teach 'em to sit Paul Pierce.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 14:50:04
Quote by Will in Chicago:
Good morning, bloggers!!

Raine, this is a very powerful blog. I think that Ms. Foley's privacy rights were violated.

No right in a society should be absolute. I do not think that an adopted child, in general, has a right to find out who is a parent. (I suppose an argument can be made against this position in case of a severe medical emergency, but this is most likely a theoretical objection. I suspect that there would be very few cases like this.)

We need to stop stigmatizing people who have to make difficult choices. As a man, I am annoyed that some other men believe that they can make medical decisions for mentally competent adult women.
This story really amazes me. That is why I put this link into the blog.

I find this just breataking that women would say such things about Ms. Foley. It callous to be quite honest.


I can appreciate that adopted children may want to find who gave birth to them, but I believe it should remain the choice of the person that gave the child up for adoption.

Women's rights are for all women, not just those born after 1967.


Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 14:51:49
*non-sequtir*

I seem to recall posting some time ago that I was unable to find in the Qu'ran where it states "Thou shalt have a silly little beard" (referring to the Saudis, in that instance.)

However, as I continue down this path, I seem to learn more things every day. There is another subset of rules and regulations called the "Hadith". These are either the direct teachings of Mohammed, or things that he did.

So, because Mohammed had a beard, it is considered "Hadith", and most Islamic males sport some kind of facial growth. (It's not universal; Asian muslims generally do not.)

So there. I do now have a feathery chin addition, but that's my "hospital beard". I didn't shave for a week while I was in, and I wound up keeping it.





Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 15:33:08
Islam kilt the blog? Guess that makes me a terrorist, then. Damn.



Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/13/2013 15:41:51
Quote by TriSec:
*non-sequtir*

I seem to recall posting some time ago that I was unable to find in the Qu'ran where it states "Thou shalt have a silly little beard" (referring to the Saudis, in that instance.)

However, as I continue down this path, I seem to learn more things every day. There is another subset of rules and regulations called the "Hadith". These are either the direct teachings of Mohammed, or things that he did.

So, because Mohammed had a beard, it is considered "Hadith", and most Islamic males sport some kind of facial growth. (It's not universal; Asian muslims generally do not.)

So there. I do now have a feathery chin addition, but that's my "hospital beard". I didn't shave for a week while I was in, and I wound up keeping it.






I have heard a few things about the Hadith, which I understand has a role in Islam much like the Talmud has in Judaism. Both can be thought of as commentary and expansion on the original texts.

Now for a few articles for discussion. This one will counter some right wing talking points: The Promising Future for Solar and Wind Energy.

HuffPo reports some good news as well. It seems that the President is listening to those of us asking for no cuts in the social safety net -- Obama: Budget Deal May Be Impossible If Republicans Continue To Insist We 'Gut' Entitlements .

Comment by trojanrabbit on 03/13/2013 15:49:38
Ooo another shooting spree in NY. 4 dead.

Comment by trojanrabbit on 03/13/2013 15:51:01
Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/13/2013 15:56:12
Quote by trojanrabbit:
CBS report



I love my country, but I hate the violence here.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 16:02:49
Interesting story on a refinery in TX and gas prices...

The last paragraph seems to suggest that the reason prices are so high in the East isn't a capacity issue, but a transportation issue. Instead of friggin' Keystone, how about a domestic pipeline to help us here?



Comment by livingonli on 03/13/2013 16:03:24
Good morning, folks. I guess I could be on the other end of this since I was a foster child and I was raised by my foster parents. I only know my biological mother as a name on my birth certificate, although I have been curious as to the circumstances considering I have my own issues with fear of rejection and abandonment which may have effected my own emotional development. I was an emotional wreck after my foster mother died and I guess I wondered what issues effected me to make me the way I am.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 16:09:24
So, I just bought a "Baby Ruth" bar. There's a bright banner on the label proclaiming "4 grams of Protein!!!"

Really? It's a freakin' candy bar!



Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 16:11:27
Quote by livingonli:
Good morning, folks. I guess I could be on the other end of this since I was a foster child and I was raised by my foster parents. I only know my biological mother as a name on my birth certificate, although I have been curious as to the circumstances considering I have my own issues with fear of rejection and abandonment which may have effected my own emotional development. I was an emotional wreck after my foster mother died and I guess I wondered what issues effected me to make me the way I am.





Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 16:18:12
Quote by livingonli:
Good morning, folks. I guess I could be on the other end of this since I was a foster child and I was raised by my foster parents. I only know my biological mother as a name on my birth certificate, although I have been curious as to the circumstances considering I have my own issues with fear of rejection and abandonment which may have effected my own emotional development. I was an emotional wreck after my foster mother died and I guess I wondered what issues effected me to make me the way I am.
I Was thinking about you and Tri as I wrote this today.

This situation isn't an easy one -- I hope I wasn't overly presumptuous. When you see what people are saying about this woman it's amazing. She was a rape victim -- in 1964.







Comment by livingonli on 03/13/2013 16:22:08
Quote by Raine:
Quote by livingonli:
Good morning, folks. I guess I could be on the other end of this since I was a foster child and I was raised by my foster parents. I only know my biological mother as a name on my birth certificate, although I have been curious as to the circumstances considering I have my own issues with fear of rejection and abandonment which may have effected my own emotional development. I was an emotional wreck after my foster mother died and I guess I wondered what issues effected me to make me the way I am.
I Was thinking about you and Tri as I wrote this today.

This situation isn't an easy one -- I hope I wasn't overly presumptuous. When you see what people are saying about this woman it's amazing. She was a rape victim -- in 1964.






I definitely feel every child should be a wanted one and maybe that's why I have felt like I didn't want kids because of my own emotional issues, feeling like I would want to be a good parent, combined with the increasing expense of raising kids as I look at the cost of college spiral so high.

Comment by BobR on 03/13/2013 16:22:49
Quote by livingonli:
Good morning, folks. I guess I could be on the other end of this since I was a foster child and I was raised by my foster parents. I only know my biological mother as a name on my birth certificate, although I have been curious as to the circumstances considering I have my own issues with fear of rejection and abandonment which may have effected my own emotional development. I was an emotional wreck after my foster mother died and I guess I wondered what issues effected me to make me the way I am.

If you don't mind me asking - how old were you when that happened? And have you made any attempts to find your birth mother?

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 16:23:38
Quote by trojanrabbit:
CBS report
I have friends that live in Herkimer county. My friends daughter attends Dolgeville middle school

Here is the local report and it seems like a really bad situation, These are small towns we are talking here.

I have to see if my mom can get in touch with them to see if they are all ok.


Comment by livingonli on 03/13/2013 16:28:36
Quote by BobR:
Quote by livingonli:
Good morning, folks. I guess I could be on the other end of this since I was a foster child and I was raised by my foster parents. I only know my biological mother as a name on my birth certificate, although I have been curious as to the circumstances considering I have my own issues with fear of rejection and abandonment which may have effected my own emotional development. I was an emotional wreck after my foster mother died and I guess I wondered what issues effected me to make me the way I am.

If you don't mind me asking - how old were you when that happened? And have you made any attempts to find your birth mother?

I was given up at birth. I made some attempts in the late 90's but it was hard getting past my foster care agency and even searching for her on the web seemed to leave no trails as to who she is or where she might be.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 16:38:11
This is our only manned Recon aircraft left...

Since the SR-71 was grounded a few years back.

And unless you believe all that "Aurora" hoo-ha.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 16:50:56
Quote by TriSec:
So, I just bought a "Baby Ruth" bar. There's a bright banner on the label proclaiming "4 grams of Protein!!!"

Really? It's a freakin' candy bar!




Idiocracy in action. Baby Ruth's got peanuts. Brawndo's got electrolytes. Same thing.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 17:25:06
It has recently occured to me that Bob is probably the only person on the planet that believes me when I state that I want to go to St. Martin to look at the airplanes....

<-- TriSec

Beach-->

Comment by Scoopster on 03/13/2013 17:28:19
Quote by TriSec:
Oh, and Scoop...let's connect on that medicine. I seem to have taken a turn for the worse this past weekend, PT/OT is having limited benefits. (and in some areas, it's actually worse than when I started.)

Apensuwi at Gmail, for a direct-connect.

Oooh.. eep I need to requisition some more cuz I'm suddenly a lil low. And to think just two weeks ago I had a half oz.!

(yes, I really do love the stuff that much, even at my advanced age)

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 17:33:06
Oh, and after I'm elected Pope on the 432 ballot (shortly after Hell freezes over), I shall take the name "Hilarius II".



Comment by livingonli on 03/13/2013 17:38:44
Sounds like the caller on Ed's show has been drinking the Alex Jones Kool-Aid.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 17:55:38
Question for my bloggie peeps. I've been reading Philip Dray's excellent There Is Power In A Union, I've gotten up the section on Cesar Chavez and the UFW. How many of you remember your moms not buying table grapes in the late 60s and early 70s? I know my mom did.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 18:19:13
Quote by TriSec:
Oh, and after I'm elected Pope on the 432 ballot (shortly after Hell freezes over), I shall take the name "Hilarius II".

We'll know very shortly if they picked you. There is white smoke billowing in Rome.

WSe should know shortly who the next pope is.



Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 18:29:50
Quote by Raine:
Quote by TriSec:
Oh, and after I'm elected Pope on the 432 ballot (shortly after Hell freezes over), I shall take the name "Hilarius II".

We'll know very shortly if they picked you. There is white smoke billowing in Rome.

WSe should know shortly who the next pope is.




that was quick - bet it's the guy from Milan.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 18:44:18
Mala, has white smoke come out of the Vatican?

Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 18:47:06
Quote by Mondobubba:
Mala, has white smoke come out of the Vatican?


according to Ed, TMZ and CNN is did.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 18:49:08
Every TV Station is covering this. Pope von Pope should be coming out onto the balcony in a few minutes.

Comment by trojanrabbit on 03/13/2013 18:51:34
Rather obvious Fark headline - Cardinals hire new manager.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 18:52:08
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by TriSec:
Oh, and after I'm elected Pope on the 432 ballot (shortly after Hell freezes over), I shall take the name "Hilarius II".

We'll know very shortly if they picked you. There is white smoke billowing in Rome.

WSe should know shortly who the next pope is.




that was quick - bet it's the guy from Milan.
I hope we have a black pope. Just to make the wingers heads esplode.

First a black President and now a black Pope!!! DAMN YOU OBUMMER!


Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 18:58:48
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Mondobubba:
Mala, has white smoke come out of the Vatican?


according to Ed, TMZ and CNN is did.



Add NYT to that list.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 18:59:17
"Voice of the Scout" questions revealed

I have already replied to the reporter listed in the story. Stay tuned!



Comment by livingonli on 03/13/2013 19:00:21
Al-Jazeera English is showing the crowds gathered at the Vatican watching the whole thing and they are confirming a new pope. That actually was quick.

Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:02:26
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by TriSec:
Oh, and after I'm elected Pope on the 432 ballot (shortly after Hell freezes over), I shall take the name "Hilarius II".

We'll know very shortly if they picked you. There is white smoke billowing in Rome.

WSe should know shortly who the next pope is.




that was quick - bet it's the guy from Milan.
I hope we have a black pope. Just to make the wingers heads esplode.

First a black President and now a black Pope!!! DAMN YOU OBUMMER!


now that would be worth seeing


Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:05:12
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by TriSec:
Oh, and after I'm elected Pope on the 432 ballot (shortly after Hell freezes over), I shall take the name "Hilarius II".

We'll know very shortly if they picked you. There is white smoke billowing in Rome.

WSe should know shortly who the next pope is.




that was quick - bet it's the guy from Milan.
I hope we have a black pope. Just to make the wingers heads esplode.

First a black President and now a black Pope!!! DAMN YOU OBUMMER!


I'd love that too.


Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 19:07:26
I propose "Dalai Pope Moses Buddha Krishna al-Hajj"


Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:10:32
http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/a-grumpy-cat-as-pope.jpg



Yeah, this didn't happen.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 19:13:55
the new Pope is from Aregentina

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 19:14:41
Archebisop Of Buenos Aries -------- HE is a jesuit priest.

Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:15:18
Quote by Raine:
the new Pope is from Aregentina



Really?! I'm shocked. Good on them for looking outside the Europe box.

Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:15:54
Quote by Raine:
Archebisop Of Buenos Aries -------- HE is a jesuit priest.



I'm not sure what that means...

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 19:16:22
Pope will be called Frances -- This is really truly historic.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 19:16:51
Great, another freakin' Jesuit.



Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:19:45
from TMZ

Here are the facts

-- He's from Argentina
-- He's 76 years old
-- He's the son of Italian immigrants
-- He's the first Latin-American pope ... and the first from the Americas.



I'm sorry if your the son of Italian immigrants how does that make you anything truely Latin-American?

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 19:19:51
Quote by wickedpam:

I'm not sure what that means...


One of the many sects of Catholicism. Boston College, and indeed most catholic schools, were founded and are run by Jesuits.

All you need to know is most of the abusive priests are also Jesuits, and the Jesuit leadership in both the USA and Rome has done their best to cover up and obfuscate.

Compare and contrast with leading Franciscan candidate Sean O'Malley, who was brought in to Boston as a reformer, and has enforced much of the youth protection policy enacted by the church, and has gone out of his way to reach out and try to heal the wounds.

When I do go to Catholic Mass, we go to Sacred Heart in Waltham, a Franciscan church. We left St. Mary's, Jesuits, to do so.



Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:20:17
Quote by Raine:
Archebisop Of Buenos Aries -------- HE is a jesuit priest.



Not a Judas Priest?

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 19:20:39
Quote by TriSec:
Great, another freakin' Jesuit.

Has there ever been a jesuit Pope? I know the Jesuits are teh ones that annually Protest at the School of the Americas.


Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:21:54
Quote by TriSec:
Quote by wickedpam:

I'm not sure what that means...


One of the many sects of Catholicism. Boston College, and indeed most catholic schools, were founded and are run by Jesuits.

All you need to know is most of the abusive priests are also Jesuits, and the Jesuit leadership in both the USA and Rome has done their best to cover up and obfuscate.

Compare and contrast with leading Franciscan candidate Sean O'Malley, who was brought in to Boston as a reformer, and has enforced much of the youth protection policy enacted by the church, and has gone out of his way to reach out and try to heal the wounds.

When I do go to Catholic Mass, we go to Sacred Heart in Waltham, a Franciscan church. We left St. Mary's, Jesuits, to do so.




good to know

but why is it when I hear Franciscan I think Friar Tuck?

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:25:12
Quote by wickedpam:
from TMZ

Here are the facts

-- He's from Argentina
-- He's 76 years old
-- He's the son of Italian immigrants
-- He's the first Latin-American pope ... and the first from the Americas.



I'm sorry if your the son of Italian immigrants how does that make you anything truely Latin-American?



There is a large Italian immigrant community in Argentina. It makes him South American/Latin American.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 19:25:56
With apologies to John Wayne...

"He's not my pope, but he's THE POPE, and I hope he does a good job."



Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:26:11
little more from tmz

Here are the facts:
-- He staunchly opposes gay marriage and abortion
-- He's known for his advocacy on behalf of the poor, primarily in his home country


Comment by wickedpam on 03/13/2013 19:31:31
okay, this pope not Hispanic, he's the son of people who immigrated from Italy and was only born in Argentina - so he's really just another old, white European. Doubt any heads will actually explode over this.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:32:23
Quote by TriSec:
Quote by wickedpam:

I'm not sure what that means...


One of the many sects of Catholicism. Boston College, and indeed most catholic schools, were founded and are run by Jesuits.

All you need to know is most of the abusive priests are also Jesuits, and the Jesuit leadership in both the USA and Rome has done their best to cover up and obfuscate.

Compare and contrast with leading Franciscan candidate Sean O'Malley, who was brought in to Boston as a reformer, and has enforced much of the youth protection policy enacted by the church, and has gone out of his way to reach out and try to heal the wounds.

When I do go to Catholic Mass, we go to Sacred Heart in Waltham, a Franciscan church. We left St. Mary's, Jesuits, to do so.




besides the kiddie rape and cover up the Jesuits are traditionally associated with scholarship, intellectual excellence and evangelism against the heretical protestants ( ). btw, Tri, they are not a sect, they are clerical orders. Why does the resident atheist have to explain this?

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:33:38
Quote by wickedpam:
little more from tmz

Here are the facts:
-- He staunchly opposes gay marriage and abortion
-- He's known for his advocacy on behalf of the poor, primarily in his home country



Sounds about right.

Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 19:37:30
'tis my jaded view on the Jesuits, I'm afraid. The scandal has left an indelible scar on my person. There's also some personal issues surrounding the lengthy ART/Adoption process that I have yet to get over.

I will not let go of my hate.

I still await the day when Javi comes home and says "So-and-so is an Altar Boy, can I be one too?" The answer will be no. (Yes, I know the BSA has the same issues...the difference being I'm in uniform standing next to him.)

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:41:59
So I was trying to find a list of Jesuit popes, didn't find one but, I did find this. Hooo daddy! Crinkler! Come lets up dive deep into the conspiracy pool!

Comment by Scoopster on 03/13/2013 19:45:52
Quote by Mondobubba:
So I was trying to find a list of Jesuit popes, didn't find one but, I did find this. Hooo daddy! :tinfoil: Crinkler! Come lets up dive deep into the conspiracy pool!



Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:50:56
Let me be the first Pope Francis Albert. Pope Ol' Blue Eyes.... Ring a ding ding!

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:51:14
Quote by Scoopster:
Quote by Mondobubba:
So I was trying to find a list of Jesuit popes, didn't find one but, I did find this. Hooo daddy! :tinfoil: Crinkler! Come lets up dive deep into the conspiracy pool!




Comment by TriSec on 03/13/2013 19:52:52
I snicker at that website. The GOP group here in MA is called "Red Mass Group", which is a play on "Blue Mass Group" (The Dem site), which itself is a parody of "Blue Man Group".

So seeing the "Red Mass" links made me snicker.



Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 19:59:15
Quote by TriSec:
'tis my jaded view on the Jesuits, I'm afraid. The scandal has left an indelible scar on my person. There's also some personal issues surrounding the lengthy ART/Adoption process that I have yet to get over.

I will not let go of my hate.

I still await the day when Javi comes home and says "So-and-so is an Altar Boy, can I be one too?" The answer will be no. (Yes, I know the BSA has the same issues...the difference being I'm in uniform standing next to him.)



Yeah I can dig it.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 20:28:19
Here's a Francis fun fact:

He was accused of conspiracy in a priest kidnapping in 2005

According to the National Catholic Reporter:

Three days before the 2005 conclave, a human rights lawyer in Argentina filed a complaint charging Bergoglio with complicity in the 1976 kidnapping of two liberal Jesuit priests under the country’s military regime, a charge Bergoglio flatly denied.


Linky poo.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 21:21:37
Quote by Mondobubba:
Here's a Francis fun fact:

He was accused of conspiracy in a priest kidnapping in 2005

According to the National Catholic Reporter:

Three days before the 2005 conclave, a human rights lawyer in Argentina filed a complaint charging Bergoglio with complicity in the 1976 kidnapping of two liberal Jesuit priests under the country’s military regime, a charge Bergoglio flatly denied.


Linky poo.
This is from 2005:
Under Argentine law, an accusation can be filed with a very low threshold of evidence. A court then decides if there is cause to investigate and file charges.

The accusations against Bergoglio, 68, are detailed in a recent book by Argentine journalist Horacio Verbitsky.

In May 1976, priests Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics were kidnapped by the navy. They surfaced five months later, drugged and seminude, in a field.

At the time, Bergoglio was the superior in the Society of Jesus of Argentina.


There are updates at your link. Interesting things happening here. I never thought for a moment that the next pope would be all LGBT rights. And I think it would take a new vatican yadayada to change thier position on Abortion.

I'm not entirely convinced about this kidnapping story.



Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 21:36:01
This is an AP article I'm sorry it's posted over at Faux news.


At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests — Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics — who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.

Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them — including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.

Bergoglio — who ran Argentina's Jesuit order during the dictatorship — told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets.
I don't know what to believe. I'm not catholic.

I'm barely Christian.






Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 21:50:13
Quote by Raine:
This is an AP article I'm sorry it's posted over at Faux news.


At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests — Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics — who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.

Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them — including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.

Bergoglio — who ran Argentina's Jesuit order during the dictatorship — told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets.
I don't know what to believe. I'm not catholic.

I'm barely Christian.







That just might be the anti-clecicism of the Guardian show through.

Comment by Mondobubba on 03/13/2013 21:51:20
What the whole new pope thing boils down to Francis is the latest in the long line of elderly white guys who have been pope.

Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/13/2013 21:53:08
This pope is an interesting choice, but I have to ask if he is meant to be another caretaker pope. He is 76 years old.

Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 22:56:02
Quote by Mondobubba:
That just might be the anti-clecicism of the Guardian show through.
I;m not sure I understand what you mean.

Actually, I don't understand.


Comment by Raine on 03/13/2013 23:03:07
Quote by Will in Chicago:
This pope is an interesting choice, but I have to ask if he is meant to be another caretaker pope. He is 76 years old.
I wondered that as well.

What is the average age of the Pope?

It used to be a once in a lifetime/generation event from what I've always understood. This is the 4th Pope I can remember. My first recollection of a new Pope was that John Paul I who died after about a month or so in office. He was followed up with John Paul II.




Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/14/2013 00:28:52
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Will in Chicago:
This pope is an interesting choice, but I have to ask if he is meant to be another caretaker pope. He is 76 years old.
I wondered that as well.

What is the average age of the Pope?

It used to be a once in a lifetime/generation event from what I've always understood. This is the 4th Pope I can remember. My first recollection of a new Pope was that John Paul I who died after about a month or so in office. He was followed up with John Paul II.





According to Wikipedia, Pope Francis I is the 9th oldest person elected pope since 1295. (The article was updated today.)

Pope John Paul II was an oddity for modern times by being elected at age 58.

Comment by TriSec on 03/14/2013 00:29:19
TriSec is melancholy enough...this doesn't help.

Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/14/2013 01:03:33
Raine, the same Huffington Post story has a comment that notes that the new pope had one of his lungs removed due to infection when he was a teenager.

Comment by Will in Chicago on 03/14/2013 01:48:02
There are also some questions about what role this new pope played in the Dirty War in Argentina.

From Consortiumnews.com and Robert Parry:


"Dirty War" Questions for Pope Francis

March 13, 2013

Exclusive: The U.S."news" networks bubbled with excitement over the selection of Argentine Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to be Pope Francis I. But there was silence on the obvious question that should be asked about any senior cleric from Argentina: What was Bergoglio doing during the “dirty war,” writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

If one wonders if the U.S. press corps has learned anything in the decade since the Iraq War - i.e. the need to ask tough question and show honest skepticism - it would appear from the early coverage of the election of Pope Francis I that U.S. journalists haven’t changed at all, even at "liberal" outlets like MSNBC.

The first question that a real reporter should ask about an Argentine cleric who lived through the years of grotesque repression, known as the "dirty war", is what did this person do, did he stand up to the murderers and torturers or did he go with the flow. If the likes of Chris Matthews and other commentators on MSNBC had done a simple Google search, they would have found out enough about Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to slow their bubbling enthusiasm.

Bergoglio, now the new Pope Francis I, has been identified publicly as an ally of Argentina's repressive leaders during the "dirty war"when some 30,000 people were “disappeared” or killed, many stripped naked, chained together, flown out over the River Plate or the Atlantic Ocean and pushed sausage-like out of planes to drown.



And from the Guardian UK


Pope Francis: questions remain over his role during Argentina's dictatorship

Jorge Bergoglio was head of the Jesuit order in the 1970s when the church backed military government and called for patriotism

Uki Goni and Jonathan Watts
The Guardian, Wednesday 13 March 2013

Despite the joyful celebrations outside the Municipal Cathedral in Buenos Aires yesterday, the news of Latin America's first pope was clouded by lingering concerns about the role of the church -“ and its new head -during Argentina's brutal military dictatorship.

The Catholic church and Pope Francis have been accused of a complicit silence and worse during the "dirty war" of murders and abductions carried out by the junta that ruled Argentina from 1976 to 1983.

The evidence is sketchy and contested. Documents have been destroy ed and many of those who were victims or perpetrators have died in the years that followed. The moral argument is clear, but the reality of life at that time put many people in a grey position. It was dangerous at that time to speak out and risk being labelled a subversive. But many, including priests and bishops, did so and subsequently disappeared. Those who stayed silent have subsequently had to live with their consciences -” and sometimes the risk of a trial.

Its behaviour during that dark period in Argentine history was so unsaintly that in 2000 the Argentine Catholic church itself made a public apology for its failure to take a stand against the generals. "We want to confess before God everything we have done badly," Argentina's Episcopal Conference said at that time.


Comment by livingonli on 03/14/2013 04:20:46
Listening to Mike Malloy on the delayed broadcast on Sirius-XM and he's opening with the new Pope and looking at his ties to the military dictatorship in Argentina and Malloy mentioned that amongst those targeted by the dictatorship were those who believed in Liberation Theology since that movement was critical of capitalism and the right-wing dictatorships that had been prevalent in Latin America back in the 60's through the 80's. I have to wonder if it seems like the Catholic Church leadership has been acting with many of its conservative policies that it really wishes that Vatican II never happened.