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Social Justice = Economic Justice
Author: Raine
Date: 03/29/2013 13:42:46
An acquaintance told me last year that Rachel Maddow spends too much time talking about abortion rights and social issues (lady parts and gay stuff) - he told me that it would behoove those on the left to talk more about economic issues and the broader burdens of our nation. Longtime readers of this blog, and people who know me probably know that the conversation turned rather heated. It ended with a filibuster from this acquaintance and the proverbial 'we'll have to agree to disagree'.
That conversation comes back to me often. When I hear about states taking away voter rights, women losing the right to choose and the topic that is at the tip of everyones tongue these past few weeks, marriage equality I think about that conversation.
It came back to me again when I read this opinion piece, in particular - the beginning comments and the last comments. In reading this column, the author - just as my acquaintance - did is separating social/civil rights issues from economic ones. That isn't the *oligarchy* doing this, it is people on the left -- progressives. While there is much to be said about oligarchy in this country, we would behoove ourselves not to be our own enemies.
We don't need to blame the oligarchy when we have people on the left that are actually engaging in conquer and divide.They may not realize it, but it is exactly what they are doing. If we allow the left to define everything in economic terms versus social/civil rights-- as opposed to social/civil rights AND economic terms, together as one idea, we become more and more like our friend of the other aisle. To take it one step further, separating social issues from economic ones pushes us further and further into Neoliberalism -- some progressives (such as the author of the piece above) may not be aware of. If the desire to force the focus on economic issues (social security as one example) as separate from things like LGBT rights, women's rights, Immigration rights -- well, we are doing the work of the right and helping them carry out their agenda.
We lose when we stop seeing that equality and human rights ARE about economic issues. One cannot exist without the other, and to diminish that thought is literally doing the work of the oligarchs. Suddenly?
It appears that to whine about oligarchs is easier than to realize that there is no sudden here. People have been denied equality for a long time in this nation. LGBTers don't have equal access to social security STILL. There are 1138 things they don't have that straight people have. You'll have to forgive me, but to whine about this oligarchy when we have brothers and sisters still looking for equality seems counter-productive to the progressive movement. Seneca Falls, Selma and Stonewall were about money just as much as equality. When people have the same rights as white men have always had in our nation, then we have more economic equality. Women at one time were not permitted to own property-- and as thus they were married into families for financial security (anyone remember something called a dowry?) . Our equality wasn't just about being able to vote, it was about being able to be financially independent. It was about being able to choose who we fell in love with and how we could educate ourselves. The same can be said about the abolition movement and later the the 1960's civil rights movement. Brown V Board of education and Loving V Virginia are just two cases that come to mind. Today we see it with the marriage equality and gay rights. Here in this nation, in the year 2013, a person can still be fired for simply being gay. If that isn't a social economic issue, I don't know what is.
We will always lose as long as we are lead to believe that economic issues such as social security are separate from social/civil rights issues such as LGBT equality. It's precisely what Neoliberalism and the 'oligarchs' want. Let's stop doing their work for them. Don't believe me?
We have a lot of economic problems in this country, there is no question about this. We will always lose when the left does exactly what the oligarchs want.
Equality/civil rights is an economic issue; it can't be separated or else it will all fall apart. When it falls apart, we go backwards -- further into oligarchy. That is just what the GOP wants.
I don't.
Raine
That conversation comes back to me often. When I hear about states taking away voter rights, women losing the right to choose and the topic that is at the tip of everyones tongue these past few weeks, marriage equality I think about that conversation.
It came back to me again when I read this opinion piece, in particular - the beginning comments and the last comments.
Oligarchy Exists Inside Our Democracy
By Ed Walker, who writes regularly for Firedoglake as masaccio
Suddenly it looks like we are seeing political victories for progressives, on LGBT rights, on issues important to Hispanics, even occasionally on issues important to women. At the same time, we lose every single battle over economic issues. (snip)
The primary impact of this leverage in the hands of the minority is on economic issues. The oligarchy is just as divided as the rest of the population on social issues, like immigration, LGBT rights, women’s issues and similar non-financial matters. It turns out that, for example, some of the oligarchs have family or friends or are themselves LGBT. Their interests in wars and other kinds of issues are also divided. Because of that, democracy could theoretically work on those issues. It’s only those economic issues where the rich are on the same team, and they always win those battles.
And that’s exactly how things are working out. On matters of direct interest to the oligarchy, they win. You can have your silly laws about marriage or abortion as long as they get their way on money. It’s a lousy bargain, and it doesn’t have to be that way.
We don't need to blame the oligarchy when we have people on the left that are actually engaging in conquer and divide.They may not realize it, but it is exactly what they are doing. If we allow the left to define everything in economic terms versus social/civil rights-- as opposed to social/civil rights AND economic terms, together as one idea, we become more and more like our friend of the other aisle. To take it one step further, separating social issues from economic ones pushes us further and further into Neoliberalism -- some progressives (such as the author of the piece above) may not be aware of. If the desire to force the focus on economic issues (social security as one example) as separate from things like LGBT rights, women's rights, Immigration rights -- well, we are doing the work of the right and helping them carry out their agenda.
We lose when we stop seeing that equality and human rights ARE about economic issues. One cannot exist without the other, and to diminish that thought is literally doing the work of the oligarchs.
Suddenly it looks like we are seeing political victories for progressives, on LGBT rights, on issues important to Hispanics, even occasionally on issues important to women. At the same time, we lose every single battle over economic issues.
It appears that to whine about oligarchs is easier than to realize that there is no sudden here. People have been denied equality for a long time in this nation. LGBTers don't have equal access to social security STILL. There are 1138 things they don't have that straight people have. You'll have to forgive me, but to whine about this oligarchy when we have brothers and sisters still looking for equality seems counter-productive to the progressive movement. Seneca Falls, Selma and Stonewall were about money just as much as equality. When people have the same rights as white men have always had in our nation, then we have more economic equality. Women at one time were not permitted to own property-- and as thus they were married into families for financial security (anyone remember something called a dowry?) . Our equality wasn't just about being able to vote, it was about being able to be financially independent. It was about being able to choose who we fell in love with and how we could educate ourselves. The same can be said about the abolition movement and later the the 1960's civil rights movement. Brown V Board of education and Loving V Virginia are just two cases that come to mind. Today we see it with the marriage equality and gay rights. Here in this nation, in the year 2013, a person can still be fired for simply being gay. If that isn't a social economic issue, I don't know what is.
We will always lose as long as we are lead to believe that economic issues such as social security are separate from social/civil rights issues such as LGBT equality. It's precisely what Neoliberalism and the 'oligarchs' want. Let's stop doing their work for them. Don't believe me?
In fact, the scientists studying climate change and activists on the issue can explain the many ways that slowing the rise of the oceans WILL in fact help all of our families. To me, that moment highlights one of many ways that the GOP in 2012 is trying to talk about the economy and families while simultaneously promoting social policies that harm both.
Both New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell (he of the mandated transvaginal ultrasound) this year have insisted that attention being paid to social issues (read: abortion, contraception, gay marriage) are distractions from talking about economic issues.
We have a lot of economic problems in this country, there is no question about this. We will always lose when the left does exactly what the oligarchs want.
Equality/civil rights is an economic issue; it can't be separated or else it will all fall apart. When it falls apart, we go backwards -- further into oligarchy. That is just what the GOP wants.
I don't.
Raine
Comments:
Order comments Newest to Oldest Refresh Comments
Comment by 
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 13:23:28
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 13:23:28
Morning. Quiet day thus far, who thought Good Friday would do that to the wheels o' commerce in Murrica?
Comment by 
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 13:42:14
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 13:42:14
Morning 
Comment by 
TriSec on 03/29/2013 13:54:49
TriSec on 03/29/2013 13:54:49
Morning, comrades.
Comment by 
Raine on 03/29/2013 13:58:32
Good morning !
Raine on 03/29/2013 13:58:32
Good morning !
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 14:04:21
TriSec on 03/29/2013 14:04:21
In other religious news, I am rather pleased that I finally seem to have memorized the Al-Fatiha, or "Lord's Prayer" of Islam. A very different feel than what Jesus taught.
Many more books to go. (Yes, there are some Koranic Scholars out there, called "Hafiz", who have memorized the entire thing.)
Surely there must be some Christians out there that have memorized the entire New Testament? But I digress...
Many more books to go. (Yes, there are some Koranic Scholars out there, called "Hafiz", who have memorized the entire thing.)
Surely there must be some Christians out there that have memorized the entire New Testament? But I digress...
Comment by 
BobR on 03/29/2013 14:08:41
I hate memorization - that's what the internet is for
BobR on 03/29/2013 14:08:41
Quote by TriSec:
In other religious news, I am rather pleased that I finally seem to have memorized the Al-Fatiha, or "Lord's Prayer" of Islam. A very different feel than what Jesus taught.
Many more books to go. (Yes, there are some Koranic Scholars out there, called "Hafiz", who have memorized the entire thing.)
Surely there must be some Christians out there that have memorized the entire New Testament? But I digress...
I hate memorization - that's what the internet is for
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 14:11:16
Raine on 03/29/2013 14:11:16
Blog is posted.
Please, for the Jesus, read it?
Please, for the Jesus, read it?
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:15:33
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:15:33
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 14:18:28
You know, I wanted to use that quote in the blog today, it was running thru my mind as I wrote -- and then, I got on a tear. 
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Raine on 03/29/2013 14:18:28
Quote by wickedpam:
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 14:21:10
TriSec on 03/29/2013 14:21:10
Schedule Note:
On Saturday, April 13, I shall be in Soutwest NH on the flanks of Mount Monadnock with Troop 250 for a summit attempt.
There is an opening for any aspiring author that morning...so how about showing the blog a little love?
(I do anticipate posting another trip report when I return - I expect this one to go much differently than Mt. Greylock back in October.)
On Saturday, April 13, I shall be in Soutwest NH on the flanks of Mount Monadnock with Troop 250 for a summit attempt.
There is an opening for any aspiring author that morning...so how about showing the blog a little love?
(I do anticipate posting another trip report when I return - I expect this one to go much differently than Mt. Greylock back in October.)
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:22:31
Its a phrasing that's been running though my brain for a while now (that and the story of the scorpion and the toad)
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:22:31
Quote by Raine:You know, I wanted to use that quote in the blog today, it was running thru my mind as I wrote -- and then, I got on a tear.Quote by wickedpam:
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Its a phrasing that's been running though my brain for a while now (that and the story of the scorpion and the toad)
Comment by BobR on 03/29/2013 14:24:10
BobR on 03/29/2013 14:24:10
I am reminded of a conversation Raine and I had with the head of the Atlanta Area Democrats (a grass roots organization). She said that Georgia Democrats should not discuss abortion, because it was a losing argument in the South.
We both disagreed, because you cannot really compartmentalize rights, equality, and justice and look at each one as a separate issue. They are all part of the same fabric of humanity.
We both disagreed, because you cannot really compartmentalize rights, equality, and justice and look at each one as a separate issue. They are all part of the same fabric of humanity.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 14:31:38
This is why I wish you would write a little more for the 4F --
You know, writing the blog today, I was thinking about the Occupy movement as well. You all know I wrote of it with some skepticism.
Today's blog was a bit of an epiphany for me, as something always seemed off to me, and now I know why, and I think writing it down helped.
As an example, If we are to go after the banks, we need to incorparate social justice as well as economic justice. As I wrote this, I was realizing that no protest movement has succeeded as long as it sat in a bubble. Lafayette square came to mind and I wrote about that last year.
Occupy is now succeeding because it is now inclusive of social justice as well. Originally its message (for me at least) was about going after the oligarchs and the banksters -- and it was failing in messaging that it was FOR the people as opposed to being against something.
It evolved and while it's not as in your face, it is doing very good things.
I hope that makes sense.
Raine on 03/29/2013 14:31:38
Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:You know, I wanted to use that quote in the blog today, it was running thru my mind as I wrote -- and then, I got on a tear.Quote by wickedpam:
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Its a phrasing that's been running though my brain for a while now (that and the story of the scorpion and the toad)
You know, writing the blog today, I was thinking about the Occupy movement as well. You all know I wrote of it with some skepticism.
Today's blog was a bit of an epiphany for me, as something always seemed off to me, and now I know why, and I think writing it down helped.
As an example, If we are to go after the banks, we need to incorparate social justice as well as economic justice. As I wrote this, I was realizing that no protest movement has succeeded as long as it sat in a bubble. Lafayette square came to mind and I wrote about that last year.
Occupy is now succeeding because it is now inclusive of social justice as well. Originally its message (for me at least) was about going after the oligarchs and the banksters -- and it was failing in messaging that it was FOR the people as opposed to being against something.
It evolved and while it's not as in your face, it is doing very good things.
I hope that makes sense.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 14:42:12
I had forgetten that conversation.
And yes, this was our disagreement with her. We do ourselves a great disservice as Democrats when we do this. This ultimately is what creates so called conservadems <--- A title given from progressives I suspect. -- etc. and as thus fractures party unity.
I would present that we do have people who are more and less liberal than myself that I consider allies. We would do ourselves well to not alienate each other. Pitting Social/cival rights issues against economic issues is one big way that this we do this. I don't like it.
That said it is more than about party affiliation, it serves to divide us as a nation. It's really quite interesting because I am quite convinced that the power brokers -- the wealthy -- the one percent would like for this to continue.
Let me put it clearly, if I know someone who is against marriage equality, I believe they are entitled to their opinion. I may disagree (MAY? NO, I totally disagree) but the day they actively fight to prevent people from having the rights they are entitled to, I take issue.
Just a few thoughts off the top of the noggin.
Raine on 03/29/2013 14:42:12
Quote by BobR:
I am reminded of a conversation Raine and I had with the head of the Atlanta Area Democrats (a grass roots organization). She said that Georgia Democrats should not discuss abortion, because it was a losing argument in the South.
We both disagreed, because you cannot really compartmentalize rights, equality, and justice and look at each one as a separate issue. They are all part of the same fabric of humanity.
And yes, this was our disagreement with her. We do ourselves a great disservice as Democrats when we do this. This ultimately is what creates so called conservadems <--- A title given from progressives I suspect. -- etc. and as thus fractures party unity.
I would present that we do have people who are more and less liberal than myself that I consider allies. We would do ourselves well to not alienate each other. Pitting Social/cival rights issues against economic issues is one big way that this we do this. I don't like it.
That said it is more than about party affiliation, it serves to divide us as a nation. It's really quite interesting because I am quite convinced that the power brokers -- the wealthy -- the one percent would like for this to continue.
Let me put it clearly, if I know someone who is against marriage equality, I believe they are entitled to their opinion. I may disagree (MAY? NO, I totally disagree) but the day they actively fight to prevent people from having the rights they are entitled to, I take issue.
Just a few thoughts off the top of the noggin.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:48:14
I've had a bout of writer's block, heck pretty much anything creative block really, for a while (I'm my own worst enemy in tearing everything apart lately). But I have been thinking of pulling something together. Just have to do it in a timely manner
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:48:14
Quote by Raine:This is why I wish you would write a little more for the 4F --Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:You know, I wanted to use that quote in the blog today, it was running thru my mind as I wrote -- and then, I got on a tear.Quote by wickedpam:
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Its a phrasing that's been running though my brain for a while now (that and the story of the scorpion and the toad)
You know, writing the blog today, I was thinking about the Occupy movement as well. You all know I wrote of it with some skepticism.
Today's blog was a bit of an epiphany for me, as something always seemed off to me, and now I know why, and I think writing it down helped.
As an example, If we are to go after the banks, we need to incorparate social justice as well as economic justice. As I wrote this, I was realizing that no protest movement has succeeded as long as it sat in a bubble. Lafayette square came to mind and I wrote about that last year.
Occupy is now succeeding because it is now inclusive of social justice as well. Originally its message (for me at least) was about going after the oligarchs and the banksters -- and it was failing in messaging that it was FOR the people as opposed to being against something.
It evolved and while it's not as in your face, it is doing very good things.
I hope that makes sense.
I've had a bout of writer's block, heck pretty much anything creative block really, for a while (I'm my own worst enemy in tearing everything apart lately). But I have been thinking of pulling something together. Just have to do it in a timely manner
Comment by Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 14:48:37
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 14:48:37
For me economic and social justice go hand in in hand.
Comment by Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 14:49:49
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 14:49:49
Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:This is why I wish you would write a little more for the 4F --Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:You know, I wanted to use that quote in the blog today, it was running thru my mind as I wrote -- and then, I got on a tear.Quote by wickedpam:
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Its a phrasing that's been running though my brain for a while now (that and the story of the scorpion and the toad)
You know, writing the blog today, I was thinking about the Occupy movement as well. You all know I wrote of it with some skepticism.
Today's blog was a bit of an epiphany for me, as something always seemed off to me, and now I know why, and I think writing it down helped.
As an example, If we are to go after the banks, we need to incorparate social justice as well as economic justice. As I wrote this, I was realizing that no protest movement has succeeded as long as it sat in a bubble. Lafayette square came to mind and I wrote about that last year.
Occupy is now succeeding because it is now inclusive of social justice as well. Originally its message (for me at least) was about going after the oligarchs and the banksters -- and it was failing in messaging that it was FOR the people as opposed to being against something.
It evolved and while it's not as in your face, it is doing very good things.
I hope that makes sense.
I've had a bout of writer's block, heck pretty much anything creative block really, for a while (I'm my own worst enemy in tearing everything apart lately). But I have been thinking of pulling something together. Just have to do it in a timely manner
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 14:53:01
TriSec on 03/29/2013 14:53:01
It's Dr. King that addresses the justice issue most presciently.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
I don't think it matters on the issue - we need to fight for ALL causes, whether socioeconomic, civil rights, or whatever it is that we believe in.
The other concept is the "slippery slope". If it's OK to do this one small thing, what's the next one that's going to go away. (Like flying - I wrote a blog about that long ago, too. Every time something happens, we are no longer allowed to do that aboard an airplane.)
Where does it stop? And who is going to pull the brake handle?
Politicians, especially the powerful ones, are far too vested to their special interests. They will do what it takes to keep their handlers happy, and if some rights are trampled along the way...well, you can't mess with the cash flow, can you?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
I don't think it matters on the issue - we need to fight for ALL causes, whether socioeconomic, civil rights, or whatever it is that we believe in.
The other concept is the "slippery slope". If it's OK to do this one small thing, what's the next one that's going to go away. (Like flying - I wrote a blog about that long ago, too. Every time something happens, we are no longer allowed to do that aboard an airplane.)
Where does it stop? And who is going to pull the brake handle?
Politicians, especially the powerful ones, are far too vested to their special interests. They will do what it takes to keep their handlers happy, and if some rights are trampled along the way...well, you can't mess with the cash flow, can you?
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:56:01
told ya, I'm the prude and stick in the mud in my fam - not sure I'd be much help
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:56:01
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:This is why I wish you would write a little more for the 4F --Quote by wickedpam:Quote by Raine:You know, I wanted to use that quote in the blog today, it was running thru my mind as I wrote -- and then, I got on a tear.Quote by wickedpam:
I'm reminded of the old saying "A rising tide lifts all boats" seems some in our own party have forgotten that.
And yes, this is truth -- "A rising tide lifts all boats"
Its a phrasing that's been running though my brain for a while now (that and the story of the scorpion and the toad)
You know, writing the blog today, I was thinking about the Occupy movement as well. You all know I wrote of it with some skepticism.
Today's blog was a bit of an epiphany for me, as something always seemed off to me, and now I know why, and I think writing it down helped.
As an example, If we are to go after the banks, we need to incorparate social justice as well as economic justice. As I wrote this, I was realizing that no protest movement has succeeded as long as it sat in a bubble. Lafayette square came to mind and I wrote about that last year.
Occupy is now succeeding because it is now inclusive of social justice as well. Originally its message (for me at least) was about going after the oligarchs and the banksters -- and it was failing in messaging that it was FOR the people as opposed to being against something.
It evolved and while it's not as in your face, it is doing very good things.
I hope that makes sense.
I've had a bout of writer's block, heck pretty much anything creative block really, for a while (I'm my own worst enemy in tearing everything apart lately). But I have been thinking of pulling something together. Just have to do it in a timely manner
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
told ya, I'm the prude and stick in the mud in my fam - not sure I'd be much help
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 14:56:41
PHRASING!!!
Raine on 03/29/2013 14:56:41
Quote by Mondobubba:
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 14:58:58
I think with the events of this week, we are seeing a few people people the brake handle.
Raine on 03/29/2013 14:58:58
Quote by TriSec:
It's Dr. King that addresses the justice issue most presciently.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
I don't think it matters on the issue - we need to fight for ALL causes, whether socioeconomic, civil rights, or whatever it is that we believe in.
The other concept is the "slippery slope". If it's OK to do this one small thing, what's the next one that's going to go away. (Like flying - I wrote a blog about that long ago, too. Every time something happens, we are no longer allowed to do that aboard an airplane.)
Where does it stop? And who is going to pull the brake handle?
Politicians, especially the powerful ones, are far too vested to their special interests. They will do what it takes to keep their handlers happy, and if some rights are trampled along the way...well, you can't mess with the cash flow, can you?
I think with the events of this week, we are seeing a few people people the brake handle.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:59:01
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 14:59:01
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
Comment by 
trojanrabbit on 03/29/2013 15:03:43
trojanrabbit on 03/29/2013 15:03:43
Comment by 
Scoopster on 03/29/2013 15:03:53
Scoopster on 03/29/2013 15:03:53
Goooooood morning all & Happy Gooooood Fridee! 
drinking: 
Oh goodness..
drinking: Quote by Raine:PHRASING!!!Quote by Mondobubba:
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
Oh goodness..
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:04:28
It is hurtful. I find it offensive as well.
It hurts to know a segment of society think that some believers are not worthy of the god as they interpret it. It goes further: Some right wingers believe that liberals are incapable of believing in God -- That is to me, akin to saying that some people are not fully human.
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:04:28
Quote by wickedpam:
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
It hurts to know a segment of society think that some believers are not worthy of the god as they interpret it. It goes further: Some right wingers believe that liberals are incapable of believing in God -- That is to me, akin to saying that some people are not fully human.
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:05:16
Grunt.
I can go to Mosque today here in college-town Worcester, then go to Temple on the campus of Brandeis University (Waltham) tomorrow, and then to the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in South Boston this Sunday, and they'll all be as full as our counterparts in Jackson, Mississippi. (Well, except the Mosque, that doesn't exist. :-P )
Like Patriotism, they have no monopoly on deities. But I wouldn't want to follow the particular brand of deity they chose - he isn't my God.
TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:05:16
Quote by wickedpam:
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
Grunt.
I can go to Mosque today here in college-town Worcester, then go to Temple on the campus of Brandeis University (Waltham) tomorrow, and then to the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in South Boston this Sunday, and they'll all be as full as our counterparts in Jackson, Mississippi. (Well, except the Mosque, that doesn't exist. :-P )
Like Patriotism, they have no monopoly on deities. But I wouldn't want to follow the particular brand of deity they chose - he isn't my God.
When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Apostle of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Apostle, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.
Comment by Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 15:08:16
What? Lil Harlots, the line of slutty tween and teen lingerie I want you, Mala and to myself found.
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 15:08:16
Quote by Raine:PHRASING!!!Quote by Mondobubba:
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
What? Lil Harlots, the line of slutty tween and teen lingerie I want you, Mala and to myself found.
Comment by Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 15:08:56
I saw then yesterday. Um fuck you very much WalMart.
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 15:08:56
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Yup, WalMart. I want someone that just walks into your store delivering the shit I stupidly bought from WalMart.
I saw then yesterday. Um fuck you very much WalMart.
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:11:09
Read that myself...I'd love to see how the customer service and delivery complaints would be handled.
TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:11:09
Quote by Mondobubba:
I saw then yesterday. Um fuck you very much WalMart.
Read that myself...I'd love to see how the customer service and delivery complaints would be handled.
Comment by trojanrabbit on 03/29/2013 15:14:38
You mean just stuff that isn't getting delivered, or the random ne'er-do-well that uses the opportunity to case the joint that he's delivering to? Or the other random pervert.....
I guess their response would be why should you expect anything more than lousy service when you could have just come to WalMart and gotten the same thing?
trojanrabbit on 03/29/2013 15:14:38
Quote by TriSec:Quote by Mondobubba:
I saw then yesterday. Um fuck you very much WalMart.
Read that myself...I'd love to see how the customer service and delivery complaints would be handled.
You mean just stuff that isn't getting delivered, or the random ne'er-do-well that uses the opportunity to case the joint that he's delivering to? Or the other random pervert.....
I guess their response would be why should you expect anything more than lousy service when you could have just come to WalMart and gotten the same thing?
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:14:58
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:14:58
Quote by Raine:It is hurtful. I find it offensive as well.Quote by wickedpam:
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
It hurts to know a segment of society think that some believers are not worthy of the god as they interpret it. It goes further: Some right wingers believe that liberals are incapable of believing in God -- That is to me, akin to saying that some people are not fully human.
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:17:57
you know I think that its looked at a little different in the south. They don't look at you funny if you're liberal and religious in the north. In the deeper parts of the south they think you have two heads or something - at least that's been my experience.
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:17:57
Quote by TriSec:Quote by wickedpam:
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
Grunt.
I can go to Mosque today here in college-town Worcester, then go to Temple on the campus of Brandeis University (Waltham) tomorrow, and then to the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in South Boston this Sunday, and they'll all be as full as our counterparts in Jackson, Mississippi. (Well, except the Mosque, that doesn't exist. :-P )
Like Patriotism, they have no monopoly on deities. But I wouldn't want to follow the particular brand of deity they chose - he isn't my God.When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Apostle of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Apostle, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.
you know I think that its looked at a little different in the south. They don't look at you funny if you're liberal and religious in the north. In the deeper parts of the south they think you have two heads or something - at least that's been my experience.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:18:49
I propose that Vel be included in this venture.
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:18:49
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:PHRASING!!!Quote by Mondobubba:
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
What? Lil Harlots, the line of slutty tween and teen lingerie I want you, Mala and to myself found.
I propose that Vel be included in this venture.
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:20:33
An online acquantance of mine is a Christian minister. He's horrified that I have "turned my back on Christ" and have chosen to follow Mohammed.
I've had this discussion with him before...I"m of the opinion that it's all the same God, we just follow different prophets, and no one book or leader has a monopoly on the path to Grace.
TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:20:33
Quote by wickedpam:
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
An online acquantance of mine is a Christian minister. He's horrified that I have "turned my back on Christ" and have chosen to follow Mohammed.
I've had this discussion with him before...I"m of the opinion that it's all the same God, we just follow different prophets, and no one book or leader has a monopoly on the path to Grace.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:26:26
It seems strange to me that people of the 3 major religions would be so abrasive to each other since all three are pretty intertwined not just in the region of the world in which they were born but in their teachings and books.
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:26:26
Quote by TriSec:Quote by wickedpam:
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
An online acquantance of mine is a Christian minister. He's horrified that I have "turned my back on Christ" and have chosen to follow Mohammed.
I've had this discussion with him before...I"m of the opinion that it's all the same God, we just follow different prophets, and no one book or leader has a monopoly on the path to Grace.
It seems strange to me that people of the 3 major religions would be so abrasive to each other since all three are pretty intertwined not just in the region of the world in which they were born but in their teachings and books.
Comment by 
clintster on 03/29/2013 15:30:20
As a God-believing liberal, I have to say that it is a struggle dealing with believers on the other side of the political spectrum. There are friends of mine who I have known for over 20 years who have been posting up their own responses to the red "=" statuses, citing Leviticus and Romans.
I have thought of countering them with the arguments about the other mortal restrictions of Leviticus (blended fabric, shellfish, stoning raped virgins). It genuinely hurts me to see these people, these friends and relatives, regard GLBT folk (some of whom they have broken bread with and regard as friends) are lesser than them and thus undeserving of making a commitment to the one they love.
I feel that I should challenge them to go to the gay and lesbian friends they know, so they can tell them to their faces that they are "abominations" and thus can never be married even if they have been with their partner for decades. I want them to do this in person so they can deal with the reaction and the consequences of making this statement in real time. It's one thing to put up an infographic or Facebook statement placing a blanket negative status to a group of people (I admit I have been guilty of that with conservatives). It's quite another to say those same things to someone face-to-face.
Damn. I started talking about the conservatroll argument that all liberals hate God, and wound up going on a tangent. Sorry, y'all. It's just eating away at me.
clintster on 03/29/2013 15:30:20
Quote by Raine:It is hurtful. I find it offensive as well.Quote by wickedpam:
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
It hurts to know a segment of society think that some believers are not worthy of the god as they interpret it. It goes further: Some right wingers believe that liberals are incapable of believing in God -- That is to me, akin to saying that some people are not fully human.
As a God-believing liberal, I have to say that it is a struggle dealing with believers on the other side of the political spectrum. There are friends of mine who I have known for over 20 years who have been posting up their own responses to the red "=" statuses, citing Leviticus and Romans.
I have thought of countering them with the arguments about the other mortal restrictions of Leviticus (blended fabric, shellfish, stoning raped virgins). It genuinely hurts me to see these people, these friends and relatives, regard GLBT folk (some of whom they have broken bread with and regard as friends) are lesser than them and thus undeserving of making a commitment to the one they love.
I feel that I should challenge them to go to the gay and lesbian friends they know, so they can tell them to their faces that they are "abominations" and thus can never be married even if they have been with their partner for decades. I want them to do this in person so they can deal with the reaction and the consequences of making this statement in real time. It's one thing to put up an infographic or Facebook statement placing a blanket negative status to a group of people (I admit I have been guilty of that with conservatives). It's quite another to say those same things to someone face-to-face.
Damn. I started talking about the conservatroll argument that all liberals hate God, and wound up going on a tangent. Sorry, y'all. It's just eating away at me.
Comment by clintster on 03/29/2013 15:31:10
That's why they're called the Abrahamic religions (or People of the Book).
clintster on 03/29/2013 15:31:10
Quote by wickedpam:Quote by TriSec:Quote by wickedpam:
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
An online acquantance of mine is a Christian minister. He's horrified that I have "turned my back on Christ" and have chosen to follow Mohammed.
I've had this discussion with him before...I"m of the opinion that it's all the same God, we just follow different prophets, and no one book or leader has a monopoly on the path to Grace.
It seems strange to me that people of the 3 major religions would be so abrasive to each other since all three are pretty intertwined not just in the region of the world in which they were born but in their teachings and books.
That's why they're called the Abrahamic religions (or People of the Book).
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:32:47
there would be marketing benefit to NOT use the prase creative juices running while mentioning Lil Harlots
Surely you HAD to know that, Mondo.
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:32:47
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:PHRASING!!!Quote by Mondobubba:
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
What? Lil Harlots, the line of slutty tween and teen lingerie I want you, Mala and to myself found.
Surely you HAD to know that, Mondo.
Comment by clintster on 03/29/2013 15:35:31
clintster on 03/29/2013 15:35:31
In other news, Richard Griffiths, who played Uncle Vernon in the Harry Potter films has passed away.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:36:31
It's fine -- I think it totally apropos.
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:36:31
Quote by clintster:Quote by Raine:It is hurtful. I find it offensive as well.Quote by wickedpam:
You know I really am offended when right wingers say all liberal don't believe in God. It really hurts my heart that they think that.
It hurts to know a segment of society think that some believers are not worthy of the god as they interpret it. It goes further: Some right wingers believe that liberals are incapable of believing in God -- That is to me, akin to saying that some people are not fully human.
As a God-believing liberal, I have to say that it is a struggle dealing with believers on the other side of the political spectrum. There are friends of mine who I have known for over 20 years who have been posting up their own responses to the red "=" statuses, citing Leviticus and Romans.
I have thought of countering them with the arguments about the other mortal restrictions of Leviticus (blended fabric, shellfish, stoning raped virgins). It genuinely hurts me to see these people, these friends and relatives, regard GLBT folk (some of whom they have broken bread with and regard as friends) are lesser than them and thus undeserving of making a commitment to the one they love.
I feel that I should challenge them to go to the gay and lesbian friends they know, so they can tell them to their faces that they are "abominations" and thus can never be married even if they have been with their partner for decades. I want them to do this in person so they can deal with the reaction and the consequences of making this statement in real time. It's one thing to put up an infographic or Facebook statement placing a blanket negative status to a group of people (I admit I have been guilty of that with conservatives). It's quite another to say those same things to someone face-to-face.
Damn. I started talking about the conservatroll argument that all liberals hate God, and wound up going on a tangent. Sorry, y'all. It's just eating away at me.
It's fine -- I think it totally apropos.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:38:39
I would propose that it shouldn't be strange at all. When we allow others to define our spiritual beliefs -- be it Christian, Judaism or Islam -- then we allow others to define us.
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:38:39
Quote by clintster:Quote by wickedpam:Quote by TriSec:Quote by wickedpam:
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
An online acquantance of mine is a Christian minister. He's horrified that I have "turned my back on Christ" and have chosen to follow Mohammed.
I've had this discussion with him before...I"m of the opinion that it's all the same God, we just follow different prophets, and no one book or leader has a monopoly on the path to Grace.
It seems strange to me that people of the 3 major religions would be so abrasive to each other since all three are pretty intertwined not just in the region of the world in which they were born but in their teachings and books.
That's why they're called the Abrahamic religions (or People of the Book).
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:39:01
Our gathering this Sunday is going to be another one of those mish-mosh affairs.
My wife's cousin is hosting, and I shouldn't have to tell you about Cubans and Roman Catholicism.
Our cousin's best friend is Jewish.
And a younger cousin will be present, and she married a Muslim.
If we tried this kind of gathering in some places in the world, we'd all be killed.
TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:39:01
Quote by clintster:
That's why they're called the Abrahamic religions (or People of the Book).
Our gathering this Sunday is going to be another one of those mish-mosh affairs.
My wife's cousin is hosting, and I shouldn't have to tell you about Cubans and Roman Catholicism.
Our cousin's best friend is Jewish.
And a younger cousin will be present, and she married a Muslim.
If we tried this kind of gathering in some places in the world, we'd all be killed.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:40:00
very true
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:40:00
Quote by Raine:I would propose that it shouldn't be strange at all. When we allow others to define our spiritual beliefs -- be it Christian, Judaism or Islam -- then we allow others to define us.Quote by clintster:Quote by wickedpam:Quote by TriSec:Quote by wickedpam:
I may not there their type of Christian but I do believe in God and am what I consider rather spiritual in that I'm open to all roads in faith.
I've been part of many types of churches and I've found that their are sect that believe themselves better then others. I've always believed everyone is equal in the eyes of God we just all find different paths to Love.
An online acquantance of mine is a Christian minister. He's horrified that I have "turned my back on Christ" and have chosen to follow Mohammed.
I've had this discussion with him before...I"m of the opinion that it's all the same God, we just follow different prophets, and no one book or leader has a monopoly on the path to Grace.
It seems strange to me that people of the 3 major religions would be so abrasive to each other since all three are pretty intertwined not just in the region of the world in which they were born but in their teachings and books.
That's why they're called the Abrahamic religions (or People of the Book).
very true
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:41:42
TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:41:42
Jesus in the Qu'ran.
Musa (or Moses) also figures prominently in many sections of the Book as well. (I"m reading the passage where his staff turns into a serpent right now.)
I"ve said it before, the number of instances where the Bible and the Qu'ran are the same, and indeed often word-for-word, astonishes me every time I run across it.
Musa (or Moses) also figures prominently in many sections of the Book as well. (I"m reading the passage where his staff turns into a serpent right now.)
I"ve said it before, the number of instances where the Bible and the Qu'ran are the same, and indeed often word-for-word, astonishes me every time I run across it.
Comment by Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 15:44:08
Damn you! You ruined my innocent act! :fristy heels, vapors, fainting couch:
Mondobubba on 03/29/2013 15:44:08
Quote by Raine:there would be marketing benefit to NOT use the prase creative juices running while mentioning Lil HarlotsQuote by Mondobubba:Quote by Raine:PHRASING!!!Quote by Mondobubba:
I think if we get Lil Harlots up and running, you will get the focus you need to get the creative juices running.
What? Lil Harlots, the line of slutty tween and teen lingerie I want you, Mala and to myself found.
Surely you HAD to know that, Mondo.
Damn you! You ruined my innocent act! :fristy heels, vapors, fainting couch:
Comment by TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:46:25
TriSec on 03/29/2013 15:46:25
And old habits die hard...it's Good Friday, and the cafe downstairs makes a wing-dinger of a fried fish sandwich. I've been looking forward to lunch today all week.
Comment by wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:47:10
Although I'm usually confused by Christians who solely want to use the Old Testament when really we're supposed to use the New Testament, you know that book that gives us the guy in which we base Christian beliefs on
wickedpam on 03/29/2013 15:47:10
Quote by TriSec:
Jesus in the Qu'ran.
Musa (or Moses) also figures prominently in many sections of the Book as well. (I"m reading the passage where his staff turns into a serpent right now.)
I"ve said it before, the number of instances where the Bible and the Qu'ran are the same, and indeed often word-for-word, astonishes me every time I run across it.
Although I'm usually confused by Christians who solely want to use the Old Testament when really we're supposed to use the New Testament, you know that book that gives us the guy in which we base Christian beliefs on
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:47:25
As a person who practices no organized religion -- I think I fall more into a deist realm -- Why are you finding yourself drawn to Islam and away from Christianity?
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:47:25
Quote by TriSec:
Jesus in the Qu'ran.
Musa (or Moses) also figures prominently in many sections of the Book as well. (I"m reading the passage where his staff turns into a serpent right now.)
I"ve said it before, the number of instances where the Bible and the Qu'ran are the same, and indeed often word-for-word, astonishes me every time I run across it.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:50:38
Now, this is something else that wonder -- Will (who is celebrating passover) is jewish -- doesn't his religion rely upon the old testament? I ask this because sometimes I wonder of liberal christians are using the old testament to counter RW'rs and I honestly wonder if that is a bit of a slap in the face of the jewish people.
See... I don't truly understand organized religion.
That said I do believe in a spirituality -- could be God.
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:50:38
Quote by wickedpam:Quote by TriSec:
Jesus in the Qu'ran.
Musa (or Moses) also figures prominently in many sections of the Book as well. (I"m reading the passage where his staff turns into a serpent right now.)
I"ve said it before, the number of instances where the Bible and the Qu'ran are the same, and indeed often word-for-word, astonishes me every time I run across it.
Although I'm usually confused by Christians who solely want to use the Old Testament when really we're supposed to use the New Testament, you know that book that gives us the guy in which we base Christian beliefs on
See... I don't truly understand organized religion.
That said I do believe in a spirituality -- could be God.
Comment by Raine on 03/29/2013 15:51:17
Is it Halal?
Raine on 03/29/2013 15:51:17
Quote by TriSec:
And old habits die hard...it's Good Friday, and the cafe downstairs makes a wing-dinger of a fried fish sandwich. I've been looking forward to lunch today all week.