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It's all about the Resume
Author: TriSec
Date: 08/02/2008 12:59:34
Good Morning.
By now, you've probably seen Senator McCain's latest TV Ad. But if you haven't I'm sorry you won't get this 1:14 of your life back.
This ad actually struck me as generally favorable towards Obama...but then there's Moses. (Hey, I thought Barack was Muslim, but I digress). Others have called the ad offensive and stupid.
But does it ask a legitimate question? "Is he ready to lead?"
Much has been made this election cycle about Senator Obama's "inexperience". Yet, in our presidential history, so very few men have had any *real* experience at being president and have gone on to do great things. Conversely, those with mountains of experience that should have made them great presidents have ended in disaster and disgrace.
What makes anyone ready to be president? There's no training program, no college course, no apprenticeship for the job. Every single president we've had walked into the office not knowing what was going to happen on January 21, and learned and adapted on the fly.
So...let's do a little experiment today. I've gone back through history and put together a brief resume for 7 likely candidates for the office. Please read them carefully and decide who you might vote for based on their experience. I'll post a poll; please pick before you go in the blog. The candidate's names will be posted inside.
Again I ask, who has the experience to be president? I daresay no one. What's important is more abstract...does the candidate have the intelligence and temperment? Does he show more than a passing awareness with the issues that really matter to Americans? Is he ready to step onto the global stage and work with other world leaders as partners? Does he talk to you, or talk down to you?
These are the things that matter. Who are you going to vote for?
[on edit: I seem to be having a problem creating a poll this morning; it didn't save properly, and now I can't see it. Nevertheless, please pick a candidate before proceeding into the blog. - TriSec]
By now, you've probably seen Senator McCain's latest TV Ad. But if you haven't I'm sorry you won't get this 1:14 of your life back.
This ad actually struck me as generally favorable towards Obama...but then there's Moses. (Hey, I thought Barack was Muslim, but I digress). Others have called the ad offensive and stupid.
But does it ask a legitimate question? "Is he ready to lead?"
Much has been made this election cycle about Senator Obama's "inexperience". Yet, in our presidential history, so very few men have had any *real* experience at being president and have gone on to do great things. Conversely, those with mountains of experience that should have made them great presidents have ended in disaster and disgrace.
What makes anyone ready to be president? There's no training program, no college course, no apprenticeship for the job. Every single president we've had walked into the office not knowing what was going to happen on January 21, and learned and adapted on the fly.
So...let's do a little experiment today. I've gone back through history and put together a brief resume for 7 likely candidates for the office. Please read them carefully and decide who you might vote for based on their experience. I'll post a poll; please pick before you go in the blog. The candidate's names will be posted inside.
Candidate A:
Attended Yale, member of "Skull and Bones"
Was a county assistant prosecutor and tax collector
Appointed Solicitor General of the United States for one term
Member of US Sixth Circuit court of Appeals
Apointed Secretary of Defense for one term
Candidate B:
Completely home schooled, no formal education
Lost first campaign for State Legislature
Eventually was elected, served four terms in the State Legislature
Elected to US House of Representatives; served one term
Retired from politics; worked as a defense attorney for several years
Ran for US Senate and lost
Candidate C:
Was an economics and sociology major
Served in the US Army
Elected president of his professional union
Served two terms as a state governor
Ran for president and lost the first time
Was out of public office for four years
Candidate D:
Graduated last in his class
Served in the US Navy
Spent 6 years in prison
Elected to US house of representatives; served two terms
Elected to US Senate; served 4 terms
Was involved in a campaign finance scandal; cleared by his Senate colleagues
Member of Senate Armed Service committee
Chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee
Candidate E:
Attended private schools; graduated from Harvard
Served in the US Navy
Won his first campaign for US House of Representatives; served 3 terms
Wrote a book; won Pulitzer Prize
Won his first campaign for US Senate; did not complete term before running for President
Candidate F:
Was Rhodes Scholar; Graduated from Yale Law School
Worked on one presidential campaign as a low-level staffer
Ran for the US House of Representatives and lost
Was elected state Attorney General in an unopposed election
Ran for governor and won; served two terms
Candidate G:
Spent much of his youth overseas
Attended Columbia and Harvard Law
Taught Constitutional Law for 12 years
Ran for state senate and won; served 3 terms
Lost first campaign for US senate; became chairman of state Health and Human Services committee while out of office
Ran for senate again and won, member of Foreign Relations, Environment and Public works, and Veteran's affairs committees. Chairman of European affairs subcommittee
Candidate H:
Worked for US Geological Survey
Spent much time overseas, overseeing many US mining concerns
Was caught in a war while overseas; wife worked in local hospitals while he helped defend the city and rescue trapped children
Invented process to recover zinc lost in mine tailings
Was strong advocate for immigration, said 'immigrants work 20% harder than anyone else
Helped rescue over 100,000 Americans trapped overseas by a major war
Was head of war relief effort; spent two years organizing delivery of food and supplies to 9 million war refugees
Was appointed Secretary of Commerce
Directed local relief efforts after catastrophic flood in US; his organization prevented widespread disease and helped local population quickly recover after flood subsided.
Again I ask, who has the experience to be president? I daresay no one. What's important is more abstract...does the candidate have the intelligence and temperment? Does he show more than a passing awareness with the issues that really matter to Americans? Is he ready to step onto the global stage and work with other world leaders as partners? Does he talk to you, or talk down to you?
These are the things that matter. Who are you going to vote for?
[on edit: I seem to be having a problem creating a poll this morning; it didn't save properly, and now I can't see it. Nevertheless, please pick a candidate before proceeding into the blog. - TriSec]
Comments:
Order comments Newest to Oldest Refresh Comments
Comment by 
capt on 08/02/2008 13:09:02
capt on 08/02/2008 13:09:02
Good Morning!
(why do I always capitalize morning? no one knows)
Excellent post - intelligence and temperment!! Those are really the only two I can invest in. The basics of "readiness" are all covered before a candidate starts a "run" - McCain and his camp aren't ready for primetime based on what they do and say, lack of temperment. I think McCain could have been a viable candidate in 2000 but the GOP machine decided on Bunnypants - now they pay the price.
Thanks man!
(why do I always capitalize morning? no one knows)
Excellent post - intelligence and temperment!! Those are really the only two I can invest in. The basics of "readiness" are all covered before a candidate starts a "run" - McCain and his camp aren't ready for primetime based on what they do and say, lack of temperment. I think McCain could have been a viable candidate in 2000 but the GOP machine decided on Bunnypants - now they pay the price.
Thanks man!
Comment by 
TriSec on 08/02/2008 13:13:15
TriSec on 08/02/2008 13:13:15
As Promised...
Candidate A: William Howard Taft, aka "Mr. Republican"
Candidate B: Abraham Lincoln
Candidate C: Ronald Reagan
Candidate D: John McCain
Candidate E: John F. Kennedy
Candidate F: Bill Clinton
Candidate G: Barack Obama
Candidate H: Herbert Hoover
Candidate A: William Howard Taft, aka "Mr. Republican"
Candidate B: Abraham Lincoln
Candidate C: Ronald Reagan
Candidate D: John McCain
Candidate E: John F. Kennedy
Candidate F: Bill Clinton
Candidate G: Barack Obama
Candidate H: Herbert Hoover
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 13:14:52
capt on 08/02/2008 13:14:52
Commander Bunnypants!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 13:19:54
Happy Birthday to Joybles! (my better half by bunches)
capt on 08/02/2008 13:19:54
Happy Birthday to Joybles! (my better half by bunches)
Comment by 
Random on 08/02/2008 13:26:36
I think you should have kept the actual names out of the selection process...Now it's no longer get an idea of which one would vote for, but a name.
Random on 08/02/2008 13:26:36
Quote by TriSec:
As Promised...
Candidate A: William Howard Taft, aka "Mr. Republican"
Candidate B: Abraham Lincoln
Candidate C: Ronald Reagan
Candidate D: John McCain
Candidate E: John F. Kennedy
Candidate F: Bill Clinton
Candidate G: Barack Obama
Candidate H: Herbert Hoover
I think you should have kept the actual names out of the selection process...Now it's no longer get an idea of which one would vote for, but a name.
Comment by 
trojanrabbit on 08/02/2008 13:26:43
trojanrabbit on 08/02/2008 13:26:43
Good morning to all. :metal:
Excellent post. There is no job that will give someone the requisite experience to be POTUS, but when you see the two candidates on the campaign trail the differences are like night and day. On the one hand, you have someone youthful, energetic, charismatic with a quick mind who has the smarts to surround himself with the right people. On the other hand, you have someone who could be a substitute for Flipper, but also gets confused easily (or can't get his flip-flops/lies straight in his head) and we're still waiting for that outburst of anger that you know is coming. What's worse is that he has decided that letting the same handlers that brought George the Lesser to power is the only way he can get to the Oval Office.
Just for chuckles (well, not really I'm trying to find some installation CD's that keep getting in my way, but now that I WANT THEM....) I have stumbled upon some "vintage" SMS disks (if you can consider October of 2005 "vintage"). I'm now listening to one of George the Lesser's "speeches" being given the MST3000 treatment.
:rofl: :rofl:
Excellent post. There is no job that will give someone the requisite experience to be POTUS, but when you see the two candidates on the campaign trail the differences are like night and day. On the one hand, you have someone youthful, energetic, charismatic with a quick mind who has the smarts to surround himself with the right people. On the other hand, you have someone who could be a substitute for Flipper, but also gets confused easily (or can't get his flip-flops/lies straight in his head) and we're still waiting for that outburst of anger that you know is coming. What's worse is that he has decided that letting the same handlers that brought George the Lesser to power is the only way he can get to the Oval Office.
Just for chuckles (well, not really I'm trying to find some installation CD's that keep getting in my way, but now that I WANT THEM....) I have stumbled upon some "vintage" SMS disks (if you can consider October of 2005 "vintage"). I'm now listening to one of George the Lesser's "speeches" being given the MST3000 treatment.
:rofl: :rofl:
Comment by TriSec on 08/02/2008 13:34:43
TriSec on 08/02/2008 13:34:43
Some jokes for a Saturday, courtesy of Blue Mass Group:
From Ben Alper:
The Massachusetts House of Representatives gave initial approval to a bill that would require all legislation be written in a gender neutral language. The bill was sponsored by Representatives Pat Jones, Lee Smith, and Terry Harper.
Jeff Beatty, the Republican challenger to Sen. John Kerry believes that if John McCain picks Mitt Romney to be his running mate, the GOP will carry Massachusetts in November -- and drive Beatty's numbers up into the single digits.
From Daniel Kurtzman:
"Have you seen the new commercial? The McCain campaign compares Barack Obama to Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. And today the Obama campaign released an ad comparing John McCain to Zsa Zsa Gabor and Bea Arthur." --Jay Leno
"Barack Obama gave a speech in Germany and 200,000 people showed up. There were so many Germans shouting and screaming that France surrendered just in case." --Craig Ferguson
"Barack Obama says that next month he's planning on spending a week on vacation in Hawaii. When he heard this, President Bush said, 'Pace yourself, because once you become president, the vacations start coming fast and furious.'" --Conan O'Brien
"And according to the TV show 'Extra,' former vice president Dan Quayle, remember him? He's in the running to join the cast of 'Dancing with the Stars.' That's true, Dan Quayle, you remember, he was vice president under the first George Bush. See, that was back in the day when the president was smart and the vice president was an idiot. Now, of course, everything's turned around." --Jay Leno
"Then this morning, the senator paid a visit to the Western Wall, one of the holiest sites in Judaism, where he followed the custom of putting a message into one of the wall's crevices. It's typically a prayer to God. Through my connections, I managed to get a hold of Obama's prayer. It reads, 'Dear God, Please protect my nuts from Jesse Jackson.' Gotta make sure this gets back in that wall. Note to self, put back in wall." --Stephen Colbert
From Ben Alper:
The Massachusetts House of Representatives gave initial approval to a bill that would require all legislation be written in a gender neutral language. The bill was sponsored by Representatives Pat Jones, Lee Smith, and Terry Harper.
Jeff Beatty, the Republican challenger to Sen. John Kerry believes that if John McCain picks Mitt Romney to be his running mate, the GOP will carry Massachusetts in November -- and drive Beatty's numbers up into the single digits.
From Daniel Kurtzman:
"Have you seen the new commercial? The McCain campaign compares Barack Obama to Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. And today the Obama campaign released an ad comparing John McCain to Zsa Zsa Gabor and Bea Arthur." --Jay Leno
"Barack Obama gave a speech in Germany and 200,000 people showed up. There were so many Germans shouting and screaming that France surrendered just in case." --Craig Ferguson
"Barack Obama says that next month he's planning on spending a week on vacation in Hawaii. When he heard this, President Bush said, 'Pace yourself, because once you become president, the vacations start coming fast and furious.'" --Conan O'Brien
"And according to the TV show 'Extra,' former vice president Dan Quayle, remember him? He's in the running to join the cast of 'Dancing with the Stars.' That's true, Dan Quayle, you remember, he was vice president under the first George Bush. See, that was back in the day when the president was smart and the vice president was an idiot. Now, of course, everything's turned around." --Jay Leno
"Then this morning, the senator paid a visit to the Western Wall, one of the holiest sites in Judaism, where he followed the custom of putting a message into one of the wall's crevices. It's typically a prayer to God. Through my connections, I managed to get a hold of Obama's prayer. It reads, 'Dear God, Please protect my nuts from Jesse Jackson.' Gotta make sure this gets back in that wall. Note to self, put back in wall." --Stephen Colbert
Comment by 
m-hadley on 08/02/2008 13:41:28
m-hadley on 08/02/2008 13:41:28
Mornin' Everybody,
Heya Capt - give a big Birthday
to your other half today :D
I spotted McCain right away as I'd heard that he graduated last in his Navy class, I also didn't have any trouble picking out Obama or Big Dog Clinton, but the others were not so clear to me. Great interactive post, TriSec. Sorry I haven't been around the last couple of daze - I have been fighting that relentless monster (depression) that gets a hold of me from time to time...
But today is looking up and I think I'll walk to the drug store before it gets so blasted hot outside. Happee Saturdee Blog-mates :P
Cheers,
mfaye
:peace: & :dance:
Heya Capt - give a big Birthday
to your other half today :DI spotted McCain right away as I'd heard that he graduated last in his Navy class, I also didn't have any trouble picking out Obama or Big Dog Clinton, but the others were not so clear to me. Great interactive post, TriSec. Sorry I haven't been around the last couple of daze - I have been fighting that relentless monster (depression) that gets a hold of me from time to time...
But today is looking up and I think I'll walk to the drug store before it gets so blasted hot outside. Happee Saturdee Blog-mates :PCheers,
mfaye
:peace: & :dance:
Comment by 
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 13:51:41
Let's be fair. It was fifth from the bottom. 894 out of 899, as I recall.
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 13:51:41
Quote by m-hadley:
Mornin' Everybody,
Heya Capt - give a big Birthday
I spotted McCain right away as I'd heard that he graduated last in his Navy class, I also didn't have any trouble picking out Obama or Big Dog Clinton, but the others were not so clear to me. Great interactive post, TriSec. Sorry I haven't been around the last couple of daze - I have been fighting that relentless monster (depression) that gets a hold of me from time to time...
Cheers,
mfaye
:peace: & :dance:
Let's be fair. It was fifth from the bottom. 894 out of 899, as I recall.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 13:54:12
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 13:54:12
Sorry to hear about your depression, mfaye. I have it as well, and it's been so bad lately my kids (around whom I usually plaster on the fake grin and play happy happy) have apparently noticed (or so says my wife).
I just can't seem to shake this one. I have dysthymia with cyclical major depression, but I seem to be stuck in high gear on the dysthymia or in a moderate major depressive episode... for most of the last few months at least. :(
I just can't seem to shake this one. I have dysthymia with cyclical major depression, but I seem to be stuck in high gear on the dysthymia or in a moderate major depressive episode... for most of the last few months at least. :(
Comment by 
velveeta jones on 08/02/2008 13:58:34
velveeta jones on 08/02/2008 13:58:34
Great poll! LOVE IT!! :clap:
Okay, the 'A' Taft, really through me for a loop. I had no idea! Lincoln wasn't too hard, because of course, only before the invention of mass media would we be able to elect a President with no formal education! (Unlike today where we can elect a total boob who snorted his way through Yale).
Okay, the 'A' Taft, really through me for a loop. I had no idea! Lincoln wasn't too hard, because of course, only before the invention of mass media would we be able to elect a President with no formal education! (Unlike today where we can elect a total boob who snorted his way through Yale).
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 14:13:48
capt on 08/02/2008 14:13:48
Thanks mFaye,
I have PTSD, am bi-polar with severe depression. Was in counseling and therapy since I was placed in foster homes due to abusive parents. (both in law enforcement) until about three years ago..
I have been through every SSRI, mood elevator, and anti-depressant and a few anti-psychotics.
Nothing really helped - talk therapy was interesting and helped me to identify many sources and rudiments but eventually even that faded into blah blah blah.
I self medicate with some herb - that has been the only thing over the years that makes me feel better.
I am better today than yesterday and better again tomorrow. You will get there too.
I learned you have to be the light at the end of your tunnel - no one and nothing else will light that way.
(same for you too Liam)
One thing I often reflect on is:
On each persons last day on earth - the reflection of what we are is a view of everything. The good and the bad, the celebrations and the suffering. One cannot have good days without the bad, cannot experience the highs without the lows.
I have PTSD, am bi-polar with severe depression. Was in counseling and therapy since I was placed in foster homes due to abusive parents. (both in law enforcement) until about three years ago..
I have been through every SSRI, mood elevator, and anti-depressant and a few anti-psychotics.
Nothing really helped - talk therapy was interesting and helped me to identify many sources and rudiments but eventually even that faded into blah blah blah.
I self medicate with some herb - that has been the only thing over the years that makes me feel better.
I am better today than yesterday and better again tomorrow. You will get there too.
I learned you have to be the light at the end of your tunnel - no one and nothing else will light that way.
(same for you too Liam)
One thing I often reflect on is:
On each persons last day on earth - the reflection of what we are is a view of everything. The good and the bad, the celebrations and the suffering. One cannot have good days without the bad, cannot experience the highs without the lows.
Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.
Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 14:38:09
capt on 08/02/2008 14:38:09
For those that couldn't get it to work . . .
Blooper: Hannity punks himself on anti-McCain Campain ad.
Works now - the problem seems to be "sitemeter" and IE . . . FWIW
Blooper: Hannity punks himself on anti-McCain Campain ad.
Works now - the problem seems to be "sitemeter" and IE . . . FWIW
Comment by 
BobR on 08/02/2008 14:48:05
BobR on 08/02/2008 14:48:05
not looking, not looking...
Candidate "C" seems to have the best "executive" experience. I like that candidate "G" taught Constitutional law - one would expect that he/she would respect the Constitution. Candidate "H" seems to have experience that would indicate that he/she cares for people that need it, as well as "foreign" experience.
It's hard to gauge from these descriptions their temperment, whether any of them have the personality to inspire people to sacrifice and do the right thing, and whether they could work with people in foreign lands (both friend and foe) to get to win-win resolutions.
Candidate "C" seems to have the best "executive" experience. I like that candidate "G" taught Constitutional law - one would expect that he/she would respect the Constitution. Candidate "H" seems to have experience that would indicate that he/she cares for people that need it, as well as "foreign" experience.
It's hard to gauge from these descriptions their temperment, whether any of them have the personality to inspire people to sacrifice and do the right thing, and whether they could work with people in foreign lands (both friend and foe) to get to win-win resolutions.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 14:56:19
capt on 08/02/2008 14:56:19
Obama calls McCain campaign cynical but not racist
(speaking of temperment?)
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says he doesn't think the campaign of rival John McCain is racist but that his Republican opponent's campaign is cynical.
Obama's comments today in Florida come after the McCain campaign charged this week that Obama had "played the race card" in accusing McCain and others of planning to scare voters about how he looks.
Obama says the cynicism comes from the McCain campaign's efforts to distract voters from real issues and engaging in negative attacks.
On the subject of offshore drilling for oil, Obama says he remains skeptical of some of the drilling proposals in a bipartisan energy bill but is open to compromise if other proposals support energy independence.
(speaking of temperment?)
Comment by velveeta jones on 08/02/2008 15:03:23
:rofl: :rofl:
Give that FOX™ intern a MEDAL!! He or she bravely lost their job for that subversive display of subterfuge.
:clap:
velveeta jones on 08/02/2008 15:03:23
Quote by capt:
For those that couldn't get it to work . . .
Blooper: Hannity punks himself on anti-McCain Campain ad.
Works now - the problem seems to be "sitemeter" and IE . . . FWIW
:rofl: :rofl:
Give that FOX™ intern a MEDAL!! He or she bravely lost their job for that subversive display of subterfuge.
:clap:
Comment by 
Raine on 08/02/2008 15:21:22
Raine on 08/02/2008 15:21:22
Good morning everyone!
Excellent post today Tri.
Excellent post today Tri.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 15:23:42
capt on 08/02/2008 15:23:42
Mornin Raine!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 15:29:15
capt on 08/02/2008 15:29:15
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 15:35:06
capt on 08/02/2008 15:35:06
Analysis: Democrats exact price from Bush for war
A piece that reminds me of one important fact:
A piece that reminds me of one important fact:
In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.
~ H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 15:43:52
capt on 08/02/2008 15:43:52
John McCain is a racist
Of course, many in the GOP are racist. Most of them do not see it in themselves. The hate is very deeply seated in and diluted by other expressed ideologies but they aren't even kidding themselves anymore.
John McCain is not just selling fear of a black man to win the presidency, he is actually scared to death a black man will be president. Fear is never reasonable that is why McCain is coming across as so petty and pathetic.
I imagine a "Few Good Men" moment in one of the debates:
McCain: "You want the truth? Damn right I don't want a president to be a man of COLOR!"
(A hush falls over the audience. CNN goes to commercial break . . .)
:rofl:
Of course, many in the GOP are racist. Most of them do not see it in themselves. The hate is very deeply seated in and diluted by other expressed ideologies but they aren't even kidding themselves anymore.
John McCain is not just selling fear of a black man to win the presidency, he is actually scared to death a black man will be president. Fear is never reasonable that is why McCain is coming across as so petty and pathetic.
I imagine a "Few Good Men" moment in one of the debates:
McCain: "You want the truth? Damn right I don't want a president to be a man of COLOR!"
(A hush falls over the audience. CNN goes to commercial break . . .)
:rofl:
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 15:54:38
capt on 08/02/2008 15:54:38
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 16:12:39
capt on 08/02/2008 16:12:39
*checks blog for a pulse*
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 16:17:35
capt on 08/02/2008 16:17:35
Instant-Messagers Really Are About Six Degrees from Kevin Bacon
Turns out, it is a small world.
The "small world theory," embodied in the old saw that there are just "six degrees of separation" between any two strangers on Earth, has been largely corroborated by a massive study of electronic communication.
With records of 30 billion electronic conversations among 180 million people from around the world, researchers have concluded that any two people on average are distanced by just 6.6 degrees of separation, meaning that they could be linked by a string of seven or fewer acquaintances.
Comment by 
starling310 on 08/02/2008 16:18:37
starling310 on 08/02/2008 16:18:37
Hey all! Wow...I was between E & G....I picked G in the end. But, either way I would have been happy; Kennedy or Obama.
Capt...Happy Birthday to Joybles!!!
Capt...Happy Birthday to Joybles!!!
Comment by starling310 on 08/02/2008 16:23:42
It's always nice when an "attack ad" is simply using their own words against them.
Yay Democrats.org!!
starling310 on 08/02/2008 16:23:42
Quote by capt:
It's always nice when an "attack ad" is simply using their own words against them.
Yay Democrats.org!!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 16:29:25
She sends her thanks for the well wishes!
She's meeting her mom at the casino to play some bingo. One of her favored forms of entertainment.
capt on 08/02/2008 16:29:25
Quote by starling310:
Hey all! Wow...I was between E & G....I picked G in the end. But, either way I would have been happy; Kennedy or Obama.
Capt...Happy Birthday to Joybles!!!
She sends her thanks for the well wishes!
She's meeting her mom at the casino to play some bingo. One of her favored forms of entertainment.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 16:33:56
capt on 08/02/2008 16:33:56
Drowning Out Obama With “Rain of Biblical Proportions”
With a video - can you feel the love?
How do these creeps pass themselves off as religious or Christian? In general people do like hate, we all know hate sucks. The whole hate liberals, homo's and anybody different from them is just so petty and small minded.
With a video - can you feel the love?
How do these creeps pass themselves off as religious or Christian? In general people do like hate, we all know hate sucks. The whole hate liberals, homo's and anybody different from them is just so petty and small minded.
Comment by starling310 on 08/02/2008 16:46:02
starling310 on 08/02/2008 16:46:02
Comment by 
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:12:10
Faye & Liam I feel your pain so to speak. I also suffer from depression. As do my brother, my father, my two late uncles (one killed himself) and one of my cousins on my father's side of the family. Ya see a pattern here? Some say there is no genetic component in depression. Riiiiiiiiiiigt.
So if I can ask, whaddya all take?
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:12:10
Quote by liam1965:
Sorry to hear about your depression, mfaye. I have it as well, and it's been so bad lately my kids (around whom I usually plaster on the fake grin and play happy happy) have apparently noticed (or so says my wife).
I just can't seem to shake this one. I have dysthymia with cyclical major depression, but I seem to be stuck in high gear on the dysthymia or in a moderate major depressive episode... for most of the last few months at least. :(
Faye & Liam I feel your pain so to speak. I also suffer from depression. As do my brother, my father, my two late uncles (one killed himself) and one of my cousins on my father's side of the family. Ya see a pattern here? Some say there is no genetic component in depression. Riiiiiiiiiiigt.
So if I can ask, whaddya all take?
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 17:20:57
Also Solar on the house can be WAY more cost effective for the consumer if it charges the auto and gets rid of the gasoline. It is truly a win-win-win!
capt on 08/02/2008 17:20:57
Quote by starling310:
Electric Cars are the Key!
I hope Obama will take the Energy crisis seriously a la Jimmy Carter!
Also Solar on the house can be WAY more cost effective for the consumer if it charges the auto and gets rid of the gasoline. It is truly a win-win-win!
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:25:10
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:25:10
So I got McCain, Kennedy, Lincoln, Bubba, Obama, & Hoover right off the bat. Taft & Dutch were d'ohs after I peaked.
I mention this one yesterday when you brought this top up yesterday Tri. G.H.W. Bush's resume is pretty impressive. Congressman, DCICA, Ambassador to China, Chairman of the RNC & VP.
See if you can guess this one:
Educated at a small state teacher college
Worked as teacher with minority students
Legislative aide US Congress
Head of the Nation Youth Administration for his state
Served six terms in the House of Representatives
Served in the US Navy
Two term US Senator
Vice President of the United States
I mention this one yesterday when you brought this top up yesterday Tri. G.H.W. Bush's resume is pretty impressive. Congressman, DCICA, Ambassador to China, Chairman of the RNC & VP.
See if you can guess this one:
Educated at a small state teacher college
Worked as teacher with minority students
Legislative aide US Congress
Head of the Nation Youth Administration for his state
Served six terms in the House of Representatives
Served in the US Navy
Two term US Senator
Vice President of the United States
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 17:25:10
capt on 08/02/2008 17:25:10
Child-Raping, Wife-Murdering Preacher Allowed to Finish Sermon Before Being Arrested
More of that brotherly love?
More of that brotherly love?
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:29:36
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:29:36
Oh almost forgot summpin. I agree with Tri's thesis, this "experience" thing is total crock. If we look at the greatest president in the nation's history through the bogus experience lens, Lincoln would have never been elected.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 17:33:48
capt on 08/02/2008 17:33:48
Bush has almost eight years of experience, it doesn't make him a good president. Experience is clearly over rated. Not to mention what kind of experience counts? Should it be political, social, educational, etc.
If "experience" is what has brought us to this point in time I would make the case that no or little experience is well worth a try . . .
If "experience" is what has brought us to this point in time I would make the case that no or little experience is well worth a try . . .
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:37:13
The experience issue is a fairly recent development in judging political candidates as far as I can tell.
Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean you character or good judgment. I mean look at Bush he is lacking in both areas.
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:37:13
Quote by capt:
Bush has almost eight years of experience, it doesn't make him a good president. Experience is clearly over rated. Not to mention what kind of experience counts? Should it be political, social, educational, etc.
If "experience" is what has brought us to this point in time I would make the case that no or little experience is well worth a try . . .
The experience issue is a fairly recent development in judging political candidates as far as I can tell.
Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean you character or good judgment. I mean look at Bush he is lacking in both areas.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:38:33
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:38:33
So, anybody guessed the candidate I mentioned?
That is Lydon Johnson.
That is Lydon Johnson.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:38:35
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 17:38:35
So, anybody guessed the candidate I mentioned?
That is Lydon Johnson.
That is Lydon Johnson.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 17:38:52
capt on 08/02/2008 17:38:52
Oh yeah, LBJ?
Ha, I guessed it. you jumped the gun! (actually I meant to post it a few minutes ago)
Ha, I guessed it. you jumped the gun! (actually I meant to post it a few minutes ago)
Comment by 
livingonli on 08/02/2008 17:40:02
livingonli on 08/02/2008 17:40:02
A belated good day. Slept in this morning and now we are in a beaut of a thunderstorm.
Speaking as another person who has problems with depression, I seem to have settled in with an interesting bunch of characters.
I didn't take overtime today, but I will tomorrow.
Speaking as another person who has problems with depression, I seem to have settled in with an interesting bunch of characters.
I didn't take overtime today, but I will tomorrow.
Comment by livingonli on 08/02/2008 17:44:37
This actually could sum up the entire Bush crime family. Cheney and Rumsfeld have had experience in the executive branch going back to the Nixon/Ford years and then there's Dr. Rice's degree where she supposedly has this whole knowledge of foreing policy. Instead, we have had 8 years of people running the show who have come close to destroying the country.
Worst President Ever.
livingonli on 08/02/2008 17:44:37
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by capt:
Bush has almost eight years of experience, it doesn't make him a good president. Experience is clearly over rated. Not to mention what kind of experience counts? Should it be political, social, educational, etc.
If "experience" is what has brought us to this point in time I would make the case that no or little experience is well worth a try . . .
The experience issue is a fairly recent development in judging political candidates as far as I can tell.
Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean you character or good judgment. I mean look at Bush he is lacking in both areas.
This actually could sum up the entire Bush crime family. Cheney and Rumsfeld have had experience in the executive branch going back to the Nixon/Ford years and then there's Dr. Rice's degree where she supposedly has this whole knowledge of foreing policy. Instead, we have had 8 years of people running the show who have come close to destroying the country.
Worst President Ever.
Comment by m-hadley on 08/02/2008 17:48:13
Heya Mondo, Liam & Capt,
I recently started taking effexor (it is supposed to help with my double-whammy severe depression and peri-menopause - what a fun combo - ugh
). Before the effexor I took celexa, lexapro, prozac, wellbutrin, and lithium and haldol (back when they thought I was certifiably nuts :P). What about you? I, like Capt, find relief in an occasional toke or two - it takes the edge off like nothing else I've tried. I'm hangin' in there - it helps me to think that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation - cliche as it may sound, it helps me to keep things in perspective - since I don't have the luxury of sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon everyday - I love how ginormous feats of nature can put us in our places and make us feel really small in a good way - just mho...
Cheers,
mfaye
:hug: & :dance:
m-hadley on 08/02/2008 17:48:13
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by liam1965:
Sorry to hear about your depression, mfaye. I have it as well, and it's been so bad lately my kids (around whom I usually plaster on the fake grin and play happy happy) have apparently noticed (or so says my wife).
I just can't seem to shake this one. I have dysthymia with cyclical major depression, but I seem to be stuck in high gear on the dysthymia or in a moderate major depressive episode... for most of the last few months at least. :(
Faye & Liam I feel your pain so to speak. I also suffer from depression. As do my brother, my father, my two late uncles (one killed himself) and one of my cousins on my father's side of the family. Ya see a pattern here? Some say there is no genetic component in depression. Riiiiiiiiiiigt.
So if I can ask, whaddya all take?
Heya Mondo, Liam & Capt,
I recently started taking effexor (it is supposed to help with my double-whammy severe depression and peri-menopause - what a fun combo - ugh
). Before the effexor I took celexa, lexapro, prozac, wellbutrin, and lithium and haldol (back when they thought I was certifiably nuts :P). What about you? I, like Capt, find relief in an occasional toke or two - it takes the edge off like nothing else I've tried. I'm hangin' in there - it helps me to think that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation - cliche as it may sound, it helps me to keep things in perspective - since I don't have the luxury of sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon everyday - I love how ginormous feats of nature can put us in our places and make us feel really small in a good way - just mho...Cheers,
mfaye
:hug: & :dance:
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:00:10
Same list except never tried prozac and no haldol but I was on resperidol and when I was on litium I had to go to 3,000 mg (3 grams) to get to a therapudic level - then my body went into heavy duty tremblors - lucky that stopped.
Lucky for me I was in patient for a few stays and they found out I had sleep apnea - pretty severe. I woke up to a doctor slapping the bottom of my foot to wake me. My ox2 was dropping to under 70% - yikes!
I wanted to get ECT but because I have had depression since early childhood ECT just doesn't work for my kind of depression.
I accepted I will be like this - forever. Upon sincere and true acceptence I was able to feel some relief - took almost 40 years to get there but today I am in a better place than most of the previous life so.
Actually I have grown fond of my black-dog-days - believe it or not it is a gift. So many people never get to experience the extremes in life. I have danced on the far edges of sanity - you can see more from there than in the middle.
I spent many years doing hard liquor and many drugs - the Shrinks seem to think the drug use (non-weed) was ongoing suicide attempts as I did WAY too much of any and everything.
capt on 08/02/2008 18:00:10
Before the effexor I took celexa, lexapro, prozac, wellbutrin, and lithium and haldol (back when they thought I was certifiably nuts ). What about you?
Same list except never tried prozac and no haldol but I was on resperidol and when I was on litium I had to go to 3,000 mg (3 grams) to get to a therapudic level - then my body went into heavy duty tremblors - lucky that stopped.
Lucky for me I was in patient for a few stays and they found out I had sleep apnea - pretty severe. I woke up to a doctor slapping the bottom of my foot to wake me. My ox2 was dropping to under 70% - yikes!
I wanted to get ECT but because I have had depression since early childhood ECT just doesn't work for my kind of depression.
I accepted I will be like this - forever. Upon sincere and true acceptence I was able to feel some relief - took almost 40 years to get there but today I am in a better place than most of the previous life so.
Actually I have grown fond of my black-dog-days - believe it or not it is a gift. So many people never get to experience the extremes in life. I have danced on the far edges of sanity - you can see more from there than in the middle.
I spent many years doing hard liquor and many drugs - the Shrinks seem to think the drug use (non-weed) was ongoing suicide attempts as I did WAY too much of any and everything.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:06:23
capt on 08/02/2008 18:06:23
Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.
Unknown
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:24:39
HERE (BBC)
Now some of the "less informed" and "less educated" voters might not get it but calling McCain cynical is a more cutting remark. It is the cynicism of the old guard. Such a description is exactly inline with the need for change and the message from the start. Time for a change.
I really like Barack when he talks all adult like!
capt on 08/02/2008 18:24:39
Talking to reporters on Saturday, Mr Obama said: "In no way do I think that John McCain's campaign was being racist. I think they're cynical."
He said no-one had thought his comments were accusations of racism until Mr McCain's team "started pushing it".
"They're very good at negative campaigning," he added.
He said Mr McCain was seeking to cast him as a risky choice because he did not fit the traditional profile of a presidential candidate.
HERE (BBC)
Now some of the "less informed" and "less educated" voters might not get it but calling McCain cynical is a more cutting remark. It is the cynicism of the old guard. Such a description is exactly inline with the need for change and the message from the start. Time for a change.
I really like Barack when he talks all adult like!
Comment by 
IzzyBitz on 08/02/2008 18:27:16
IzzyBitz on 08/02/2008 18:27:16
Hey Raine!
Hey Star!
Hey druggies!
Hey Star!
Hey druggies!
Comment by livingonli on 08/02/2008 18:29:53
livingonli on 08/02/2008 18:29:53
Good morning/afternoon Izzy. How's the SoCal weather? Here we got the thunderstorms which have knocked the temps down to the low 70's but it's still muggy.
Comment by MMB on 08/02/2008 18:33:26
MMB on 08/02/2008 18:33:26
Capt, I tried to send you a Private message but wanted to say I understand I have PTSD Bi-Polar and severe panic attacks I am as of 2 weeks ago on Cymbalta, Zyprexa and Xanax when i need it. We will see if it works!! All of you are in my thoughts. Take care
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:36:55
capt on 08/02/2008 18:36:55
The one lesson I have had to learn over and over again is:
Depression is an condition. It is not something you (or anybody) can "control" - it is not self-inflicted - so it is not your fault. Depression is not a flaw of character or personality. It is kinda like feeling tired - you went to bed and tried to sleep - got up and yet you are dog tired. Not something you have done wrong or incorrectly it happens.
Just like one of those dog tired days a nap might not work - it could even make you more tired.
All you can do is power through as best you can and be very EXTRA loving and accepting to yourself.
Most people I have known (and been in group with) have a tendency to convict themselves for being depressed. They think it kinda appropriate to punish themselves for a condition they never wanted and would never wish on anybody.
First is acceptance - by talking about it I know most all of you are already there on acceptance. The next thing is being extra loving to yourself. That will manifest as something different person by person but you have to do it and it has to be with intention. You have be loving to yourself on purpose.
Self love is hard. Many think it is egotism or narcissism but it is not.
Learn to be kind to yourself and forgiving of the dark feelings and moods. It will never make them go away but living with them becomes easier. Part of the worst feelings is feeling badly about feeling bad - you know?
(I know you know)
Depression is an condition. It is not something you (or anybody) can "control" - it is not self-inflicted - so it is not your fault. Depression is not a flaw of character or personality. It is kinda like feeling tired - you went to bed and tried to sleep - got up and yet you are dog tired. Not something you have done wrong or incorrectly it happens.
Just like one of those dog tired days a nap might not work - it could even make you more tired.
All you can do is power through as best you can and be very EXTRA loving and accepting to yourself.
Most people I have known (and been in group with) have a tendency to convict themselves for being depressed. They think it kinda appropriate to punish themselves for a condition they never wanted and would never wish on anybody.
First is acceptance - by talking about it I know most all of you are already there on acceptance. The next thing is being extra loving to yourself. That will manifest as something different person by person but you have to do it and it has to be with intention. You have be loving to yourself on purpose.
Self love is hard. Many think it is egotism or narcissism but it is not.
Learn to be kind to yourself and forgiving of the dark feelings and moods. It will never make them go away but living with them becomes easier. Part of the worst feelings is feeling badly about feeling bad - you know?
(I know you know)
Comment by IzzyBitz on 08/02/2008 18:37:50
Hey Livin! I don't want to jinx it, but weather in my hood has been wonderful. It has been like Autumn, lovely breeze and comfortable temps, but August is here, so those nasty valley temps might creep in any day now.
IzzyBitz on 08/02/2008 18:37:50
Quote by livingonli:
Good morning/afternoon Izzy. How's the SoCal weather? Here we got the thunderstorms which have knocked the temps down to the low 70's but it's still muggy.
Hey Livin! I don't want to jinx it, but weather in my hood has been wonderful. It has been like Autumn, lovely breeze and comfortable temps, but August is here, so those nasty valley temps might creep in any day now.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:39:56
capt on 08/02/2008 18:39:56
captkjl2@msn.com
I have never spoken so openly online - I think you all have my total trust, love and respect. I could never have shared so much otherwise.
Thanks!
I have never spoken so openly online - I think you all have my total trust, love and respect. I could never have shared so much otherwise.
Thanks!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:45:16
As you are in my thoughts kitten!
So much in common and we barely know each other - how cool is THAT!
We will make it. It is always a rough road but smoother than off road!
capt on 08/02/2008 18:45:16
Quote by MMB:
Capt, I tried to send you a Private message but wanted to say I understand I have PTSD Bi-Polar and severe panic attacks I am as of 2 weeks ago on Cymbalta, Zyprexa and Xanax when i need it. We will see if it works!! All of you are in my thoughts. Take care
As you are in my thoughts kitten!
So much in common and we barely know each other - how cool is THAT!
We will make it. It is always a rough road but smoother than off road!
Comment by starling310 on 08/02/2008 18:48:03
starling310 on 08/02/2008 18:48:03
I have Bush-onset depression. I suspect it will go away organically on January 20, 2009.
WHAT UP IZZY!?!?!
My home computer has died for some reason today. just stopped workin.
I am using the work laptop.
I have shut it down, reboot it several times and nada. Just an hourglass...for a looooong time. My system tray doesn't even populate fully.
:doh:
WHAT UP IZZY!?!?!
My home computer has died for some reason today. just stopped workin.
I am using the work laptop.
I have shut it down, reboot it several times and nada. Just an hourglass...for a looooong time. My system tray doesn't even populate fully.
:doh:
Comment by TriSec on 08/02/2008 18:49:23
TriSec on 08/02/2008 18:49:23
A little plane porn and foil hatery for you this afternoon.
First off, check out the size of the unit on that pilot!
Then think about this....it's an Airbus, yes...but it's similar in size to a Boeing 767. This is what it would have looked like on the ground at the Pentagon.
So how come the "official" video footage shows a little white blur?
First off, check out the size of the unit on that pilot!
Then think about this....it's an Airbus, yes...but it's similar in size to a Boeing 767. This is what it would have looked like on the ground at the Pentagon.
So how come the "official" video footage shows a little white blur?
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 18:54:55
Because it wasn't a plane? I am just guessing here but maybe something a little smaller? I have seen a frame still that shows a "nose" WAY too small to be an airliner. . . but I digress.
*going for four layers*
capt on 08/02/2008 18:54:55
So how come the "official" video footage shows a little white blur?
Because it wasn't a plane? I am just guessing here but maybe something a little smaller? I have seen a frame still that shows a "nose" WAY too small to be an airliner. . . but I digress.
*going for four layers*
Comment by livingonli on 08/02/2008 18:57:45
Do you have your backup disks, maybe you can try and restore it.
livingonli on 08/02/2008 18:57:45
Quote by starling310:
I have Bush-onset depression. I suspect it will go away organically on January 20, 2009.
WHAT UP IZZY!?!?!
My home computer has died for some reason today. just stopped workin.
I am using the work laptop.
I have shut it down, reboot it several times and nada. Just an hourglass...for a looooong time. My system tray doesn't even populate fully.
:doh:
Do you have your backup disks, maybe you can try and restore it.
Comment by livingonli on 08/02/2008 18:59:50
livingonli on 08/02/2008 18:59:50
The thunderstorm we had here is now moving through Suffolk County.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 19:23:40
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 19:23:40
Me, I just take Lexapro, 10 mg once a day. I guess I am a light weight.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 19:40:39
No such thing (I know you're kiddin) - If it helps you are on the right track.
Basically - if a person is trying to get better they have really beaten the biggest obstacle - denial.
It is the people that deny they have a problem that scare me. They end up with much more trouble and many more problems.
Depression is not abnormal or out of the ordinary.
The most important thing to watch for under all circumstances if suicidal ideation. If the thought crosses your mind - find someone to talk to about it. At those times you might not love yourself but others do and nobody that loves you wants any harm to come to you - ever.
capt on 08/02/2008 19:40:39
Quote by Mondobubba:
Me, I just take Lexapro, 10 mg once a day. I guess I am a light weight.
No such thing (I know you're kiddin) - If it helps you are on the right track.
Basically - if a person is trying to get better they have really beaten the biggest obstacle - denial.
It is the people that deny they have a problem that scare me. They end up with much more trouble and many more problems.
Depression is not abnormal or out of the ordinary.
The most important thing to watch for under all circumstances if suicidal ideation. If the thought crosses your mind - find someone to talk to about it. At those times you might not love yourself but others do and nobody that loves you wants any harm to come to you - ever.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 19:55:43
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 19:55:43
Denzel Washington is no Frank Sinatra. Yeah I'm watching the remake of "The Manchurian Candidate" Hey Al Franken! Cool.
I will let you know if La Streep is as good as Angela Landsbury. She was so eeeevil in the original.
I will let you know if La Streep is as good as Angela Landsbury. She was so eeeevil in the original.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 19:59:17
capt on 08/02/2008 19:59:17
In my best Monty Burns . .
That movie was EGGGGGGGGGcellent!
We love us some Denzil and I think you will be pleased with Streep too!
That movie was EGGGGGGGGGcellent!
We love us some Denzil and I think you will be pleased with Streep too!
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:06:03
True words Capt! You have to love yourself and admit to the problem. I had a break through about "what was wrong with me" at my parent's 50th anniversary. As I sat there with my brother, cousin and dad talking about the family it hit me I have some kinda depression. I like Liam have dysthymia, I like to think of it as the constant inner critic who just won't shut the hell up. Thanks to the meds and my theripist I have been able to for the most part shot the voice the hell up.
My late wife could never understand why I would tell people I have depression. She thought it was something not to be discussed. I disagreed with her about that, it is something to be discussed. It is nothing to be scared of.
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:06:03
Quote by capt:Quote by Mondobubba:
Me, I just take Lexapro, 10 mg once a day. I guess I am a light weight.
No such thing (I know you're kiddin) - If it helps you are on the right track.
Basically - if a person is trying to get better they have really beaten the biggest obstacle - denial.
It the people that deny they have a problem that scare me. They end up with much more trouble and many more problems.
Depression is not abnormal or out of the ordinary.
The most important thing to watch for under all circumstances if suicidal ideation. If the thought crosses your mind - find someone to talk to about it. At those times you might not love yourself but others do and nobody that loves you wants any harm to come to you - ever.
True words Capt! You have to love yourself and admit to the problem. I had a break through about "what was wrong with me" at my parent's 50th anniversary. As I sat there with my brother, cousin and dad talking about the family it hit me I have some kinda depression. I like Liam have dysthymia, I like to think of it as the constant inner critic who just won't shut the hell up. Thanks to the meds and my theripist I have been able to for the most part shot the voice the hell up.
My late wife could never understand why I would tell people I have depression. She thought it was something not to be discussed. I disagreed with her about that, it is something to be discussed. It is nothing to be scared of.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:07:24
capt on 08/02/2008 20:07:24
Obama quote: Corporate media omissions. A deliberate decision?
Grrrrrr. We have had this discussion. The M$M has failed and is now just a propaganda arm of the corporate multinationals.
Grrrrrr. We have had this discussion. The M$M has failed and is now just a propaganda arm of the corporate multinationals.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:08:31
So far, I'm not feeling it. The original kicked some serious arse.
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:08:31
Quote by capt:
In my best Monty Burns . .
That movie was EGGGGGGGGGcellent!
We love us some Denzil and I think you will be pleased with Streep too!
So far, I'm not feeling it. The original kicked some serious arse.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:12:41
It is fear that stifles the discussion. You had to be brave to face it, talk about it.
See, in that way it is a gift - you have learned a strength that many will never know.
(not that I would wish depression on my worst enemy)
*high fives*
capt on 08/02/2008 20:12:41
Quote by Mondobubba:
True words Capt! You have to love yourself and admit to the problem. I had a break through about "what was wrong with me" at my parent's 50th anniversary. As I sat there with my brother, cousin and dad talking about the family it hit me I have some kinda depression. I like Liam have dysthymia, I like to think of it as the constant inner critic who just won't shut the hell up. Thanks to the meds and my theripist I have been able to for the most part shot the voice the hell up.
My late wife could never understand why I would tell people I have depression. She thought it was something not to be discussed. I disagreed with her about that, it is something to be discussed. It is nothing to be scared of.
It is fear that stifles the discussion. You had to be brave to face it, talk about it.
See, in that way it is a gift - you have learned a strength that many will never know.
(not that I would wish depression on my worst enemy)
*high fives*
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:13:42
I might have started at a disadvantage - I barely remember the original.
capt on 08/02/2008 20:13:42
Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by capt:
In my best Monty Burns . .
That movie was EGGGGGGGGGcellent!
We love us some Denzil and I think you will be pleased with Streep too!
So far, I'm not feeling it. The original kicked some serious arse.
I might have started at a disadvantage - I barely remember the original.
Comment by livingonli on 08/02/2008 20:18:15
livingonli on 08/02/2008 20:18:15
Time to go head off to the salt mine.
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:26:25
capt on 08/02/2008 20:26:25
Liv - have a great day!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:30:33
capt on 08/02/2008 20:30:33
John McCain Plays the Race Card
Might be the stopped clock rule again but Bill Press is right on this one. Funny he couldn't see the same issue when HRC was exploiting race . . .
Better late than never.
Might be the stopped clock rule again but Bill Press is right on this one. Funny he couldn't see the same issue when HRC was exploiting race . . .
Better late than never.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:35:01
I've seen the Sinatra version about half a dozen times. Angela Landsbury is fantastic. Deliciously evil! One of the best villains evah!
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:35:01
Quote by capt:Quote by Mondobubba:Quote by capt:
In my best Monty Burns . .
That movie was EGGGGGGGGGcellent!
We love us some Denzil and I think you will be pleased with Streep too!
So far, I'm not feeling it. The original kicked some serious arse.
I might have started at a disadvantage - I barely remember the original.
I've seen the Sinatra version about half a dozen times. Angela Landsbury is fantastic. Deliciously evil! One of the best villains evah!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:39:41
Just never invite her over - someone always ends up dead (Murder she wrote)
capt on 08/02/2008 20:39:41
Angela Lansbury is fantastic
Just never invite her over - someone always ends up dead (Murder she wrote)
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:43:56
Or she might want to have you play a nice game of solitaire!
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 20:43:56
Quote by capt:Angela Lansbury is fantastic
Just never invite her over - someone always ends up dead (Murder she wrote)
Or she might want to have you play a nice game of solitaire!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:44:42
Does "in cohoots" about cover it?
capt on 08/02/2008 20:44:42
From Think Progress:
Later in their conversation, former President Bush — apparently not realizing he was on the air — asked about "our man [Roger] Ailes," the president of Fox News:
H. W. BUSH: Do you see our man Ailes at all?
LIMBAUGH: Oh, yeah. I saw Roger at Tony Snow’s funeral...And a couple of times earlier this summer.
H. W. BUSH: Are we on the radio, are we? [...] I didn’t know that. I’ll clean up my act here. I’m glad they told me.
Does "in cohoots" about cover it?
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 20:49:05
capt on 08/02/2008 20:49:05
One of the newer meme's I have heard is:
Obama is going to win but should we elect him with some huge landslide? Should we let him enter office with such a mandate?
To which I say if Bunnypants and the GOP can call 51/49 a mandate we should send Obama into office with a real mandate. 60/40 would be nice 70/30 even better and 80/20 is a bit more like it!
Obama is going to win but should we elect him with some huge landslide? Should we let him enter office with such a mandate?
To which I say if Bunnypants and the GOP can call 51/49 a mandate we should send Obama into office with a real mandate. 60/40 would be nice 70/30 even better and 80/20 is a bit more like it!
Comment by m-hadley on 08/02/2008 21:15:40
I'm with you there Capt, I think that this group has inspired so much trust and good feelings in me, that I feel free to share things I haven't shared with many other people - a testament to the place that Raine, BobR and TriSec have made here - :fbump:
Cheers,
mfaye
:hug: & :dance:
m-hadley on 08/02/2008 21:15:40
Quote by capt:
captkjl2@msn.com
I have never spoken so openly online - I think you all have my total trust, love and respect. I could never have shared so much otherwise.
Thanks!
I'm with you there Capt, I think that this group has inspired so much trust and good feelings in me, that I feel free to share things I haven't shared with many other people - a testament to the place that Raine, BobR and TriSec have made here - :fbump:
Cheers,
mfaye
:hug: & :dance:
Comment by 
clintster on 08/02/2008 21:26:16
clintster on 08/02/2008 21:26:16
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 21:32:22
*Z snap* Nancy Grace - hate her!
She used to make me crazy before I took the news-o-tainment channels off my line up. Now this is the first I've heard of this.
Funny all the M$M can drive people to suicide with their endless questioning but they can't ask the pwesident or the politicians any hard questions because they might not get access?
This is the new journalism? ECK!
capt on 08/02/2008 21:32:22
Quote by clintster:
I'm feeling a bit vindicated after reading this:
Nancy Grace Wrongful Death Suit To Proceed
*Z snap* Nancy Grace - hate her!
She used to make me crazy before I took the news-o-tainment channels off my line up. Now this is the first I've heard of this.
Funny all the M$M can drive people to suicide with their endless questioning but they can't ask the pwesident or the politicians any hard questions because they might not get access?
This is the new journalism? ECK!
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 21:34:33
capt on 08/02/2008 21:34:33
a testament to the place that Raine, BobR and TriSec have made here
Three cheers!
You guys RAWK! (all of you all)
Three cheers!
You guys RAWK! (all of you all)
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 21:57:35
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 21:57:35
Man you can never win with cats! I am getting stink eye from Cassie because I took away the lizard she trying to eat and put the poor critter outside. Sorry cat no lizard gizzard for you right now.
Comment by BobR on 08/02/2008 22:02:31
BobR on 08/02/2008 22:02:31
wow - it looks like Starling and I were the only ones that followed TriSec's directions in the blog and picked a candidate based on the description, rather than try to figure out who they were.
Reading comprehension people! The directions were right there!
Reading comprehension people! The directions were right there!
Comment by BobR on 08/02/2008 22:03:31
oh garsh...
BobR on 08/02/2008 22:03:31
Quote by capt:
a testament to the place that Raine, BobR and TriSec have made here
Three cheers!
You guys RAWK! (all of you all)
oh garsh...
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:05:13
Good! I dislike the Hair-Helmeted Harpy of Headline News with her fake outrage. She is the worst thing on any of the CNN networks. Even worse than Glen Beck. All she does is go on endlessly missing white women, dead kids and all manner of lurid crap. Is this news? Hardly.
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:05:13
Quote by clintster:
I'm feeling a bit vindicated after reading this:
Nancy Grace Wrongful Death Suit To Proceed
Good! I dislike the Hair-Helmeted Harpy of Headline News with her fake outrage. She is the worst thing on any of the CNN networks. Even worse than Glen Beck. All she does is go on endlessly missing white women, dead kids and all manner of lurid crap. Is this news? Hardly.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:10:45
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:10:45
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:18:19
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:18:19
New version of "The Manchurian Candidate" meh. I much prefer Cold War paranoia than post cold war paranoia.
Great soundtrack! Mission of Burma, They Might Be Giants oh yeah! :metal:
I much prefer Cold War paranoia than post cold war paranoia. Great soundtrack! Mission of Burma, They Might Be Giants oh yeah! :metal:
Comment by Raine on 08/02/2008 22:21:37
Raine on 08/02/2008 22:21:37
Awww Damn guys.
you know it is a group effort... actually, it isn't really much of an effort at all...
:peace:
Raine
(just got done reading the blog! Wow.
Oh, and I just got back from Old Navy! Tax free, +Clearance + Frinds and Family coupon = VERY VERY sweet deals. Then off to the Thrift Store, a few more skirts, I am ready for the big trip to NY!
Happy Birthday to Joybles ! :cheer:
you know it is a group effort... actually, it isn't really much of an effort at all...
:peace:
Raine
(just got done reading the blog! Wow.
Oh, and I just got back from Old Navy! Tax free, +Clearance + Frinds and Family coupon = VERY VERY sweet deals. Then off to the Thrift Store, a few more skirts, I am ready for the big trip to NY!
Happy Birthday to Joybles ! :cheer:
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 22:21:53
(Replying 8 hours later, sorry, we were out with the kids)
Does the weed actually work?
I've had people suggest I try it, and I'm a little too tight-assed to actually try it so far. But I'm starting to feel like maybe it's that or... eventually give up, which is probably not a good result for my kids.
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 22:21:53
Quote by capt:
Thanks mFaye,
I have PTSD, am bi-polar with severe depression. Was in counseling and therapy since I was placed in foster homes due to abusive parents. (both in law enforcement) until about three years ago..
I have been through every SSRI, mood elevator, and anti-depressant and a few anti-psychotics.
Nothing really helped - talk therapy was interesting and helped me to identify many sources and rudiments but eventually even that faded into blah blah blah.
I self medicate with some herb - that has been the only thing over the years that makes me feel better.
I am better today than yesterday and better again tomorrow. You will get there too.
I learned you have to be the light at the end of your tunnel - no one and nothing else will light that way.
(same for you too Liam)
One thing I often reflect on is:
On each persons last day on earth - the reflection of what we are is a view of everything. The good and the bad, the celebrations and the suffering. One cannot have good days without the bad, cannot experience the highs without the lows.Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.
Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)
(Replying 8 hours later, sorry, we were out with the kids)
Does the weed actually work?
I've had people suggest I try it, and I'm a little too tight-assed to actually try it so far. But I'm starting to feel like maybe it's that or... eventually give up, which is probably not a good result for my kids.
Comment by Raine on 08/02/2008 22:23:39
Raine on 08/02/2008 22:23:39
Quote by BobR:
wow - it looks like Starling and I were the only ones that followed TriSec's directions in the blog and picked a candidate based on the description, rather than try to figure out who they were.
Reading comprehension people! The directions were right there!
Comment by BobR on 08/02/2008 22:27:53
Speak for yourself - I put in HOURS of work writing the code for this!!
BobR on 08/02/2008 22:27:53
Quote by Raine:
Awww Damn guys.
you know it is a group effort... actually, it isn't really much of an effort at all...
:peace:
Raine
Speak for yourself - I put in HOURS of work writing the code for this!!
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:31:10
Yeah poor Bobber coding his fingers to the bone for our enjoyment! Not getting any pay for this. That is time he could have been umm, umm, brewing beer! Yeah that's it, brewing beer! Oh never mind, I am rambling. :slinks off:
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 22:31:10
Quote by BobR:Quote by Raine:
Awww Damn guys.
you know it is a group effort... actually, it isn't really much of an effort at all...
:peace:
Raine
Speak for yourself - I put in HOURS of work writing the code for this!!
Yeah poor Bobber coding his fingers to the bone for our enjoyment! Not getting any pay for this. That is time he could have been umm, umm, brewing beer! Yeah that's it, brewing beer! Oh never mind, I am rambling. :slinks off:
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 22:40:41
Frequent naps, the occasonal vacation, and not much else.
I've tried so many different things. The only one that worked at all, for a while, was Wellbutrin, but I had to keep upping the dosage until I was at the max dose, which then kept me from sleeping for about 3 days at a time (then I'd crash and sleep for about 16 hours in a row, before the cycle started over again), and ultimately lead me to the worst lows in major depression I'd had in a long time.
None of the SSRIs ever worked very well. Elavil made me sleep all the time. Vivactil made me sick to my stomach. Effexor didn't work. I don't remember what else...
Oh, Remeron was HORRIBLE. I was ravenously hungry, gained 20 lbs in the 3 weeks I was on it, and had horrible short term memory problems. I stopped using it when I spoke to a friend on line and told her about the problems, and she said "I know, you told me about all of this yesterday". Now, the fact that I'd forgotten I'd told her specifically wasn't a problem, I do that sometimes. But if you'd asked me to swear on a stack of bibles, I would have sworn that I had not spoken with her in over a week. (And that's only partially because I'm agnostic, so the Bibles don't mean much to me).
So, lots of tries, a few bad side effects and almost no good effect, certainly none that lasted.
Liam.
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 22:40:41
Quote by Mondobubba:
Faye & Liam I feel your pain so to speak. I also suffer from depression. As do my brother, my father, my two late uncles (one killed himself) and one of my cousins on my father's side of the family. Ya see a pattern here? Some say there is no genetic component in depression. Riiiiiiiiiiigt.
So if I can ask, whaddya all take?
Frequent naps, the occasonal vacation, and not much else.
I've tried so many different things. The only one that worked at all, for a while, was Wellbutrin, but I had to keep upping the dosage until I was at the max dose, which then kept me from sleeping for about 3 days at a time (then I'd crash and sleep for about 16 hours in a row, before the cycle started over again), and ultimately lead me to the worst lows in major depression I'd had in a long time.
None of the SSRIs ever worked very well. Elavil made me sleep all the time. Vivactil made me sick to my stomach. Effexor didn't work. I don't remember what else...
Oh, Remeron was HORRIBLE. I was ravenously hungry, gained 20 lbs in the 3 weeks I was on it, and had horrible short term memory problems. I stopped using it when I spoke to a friend on line and told her about the problems, and she said "I know, you told me about all of this yesterday". Now, the fact that I'd forgotten I'd told her specifically wasn't a problem, I do that sometimes. But if you'd asked me to swear on a stack of bibles, I would have sworn that I had not spoken with her in over a week. (And that's only partially because I'm agnostic, so the Bibles don't mean much to me).
So, lots of tries, a few bad side effects and almost no good effect, certainly none that lasted.
Liam.
Comment by Raine on 08/02/2008 22:47:10
Raine on 08/02/2008 22:47:10
Comment by Raine on 08/02/2008 23:07:15
Raine on 08/02/2008 23:07:15
McCain Security removed ONLY black reporter at MCCain Event...
Oh, and when another reporter questioned it... she --- SHE (just want to make that clear) was removed.
That isn't to racist... is it?
Oh, and when another reporter questioned it... she --- SHE (just want to make that clear) was removed.
That isn't to racist... is it?
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:14:53
The only ones of those I never tried are lithium and celexa. I've read that Celexa is a royal BITCH to get off of...
See, my problem is that feeling small is a very BAD thing. I keep thinking how inconsequential all of human existance is in the grand scheme of things. We're a micro-microsecond blip on the radar on a single atom of an ocean of worlds. And my own life is such a tiny little thing, completely forgotten about 20 years after I'm gone (maybe 50 if I'm lucky and my grandkids remember me fondly).
It's hard to feel like anything is important when I keep seeing that grand and glorious whole and realizing that I'm nothing, with no control, no meaning and (since I'm not particularly religious) nothing to look forward to after another 40-50 years at best.
Not to bum anyone out, but...
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:14:53
Quote by m-hadley:
Heya Mondo, Liam & Capt,
I recently started taking effexor (it is supposed to help with my double-whammy severe depression and peri-menopause - what a fun combo - ugh
The only ones of those I never tried are lithium and celexa. I've read that Celexa is a royal BITCH to get off of...
Quote by m-hadley:
I'm hangin' in there - it helps me to think that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation - cliche as it may sound, it helps me to keep things in perspective - since I don't have the luxury of sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon everyday - I love how ginormous feats of nature can put us in our places and make us feel really small in a good way - just mho...
Cheers,
mfaye
:hug: & :dance:
See, my problem is that feeling small is a very BAD thing. I keep thinking how inconsequential all of human existance is in the grand scheme of things. We're a micro-microsecond blip on the radar on a single atom of an ocean of worlds. And my own life is such a tiny little thing, completely forgotten about 20 years after I'm gone (maybe 50 if I'm lucky and my grandkids remember me fondly).
It's hard to feel like anything is important when I keep seeing that grand and glorious whole and realizing that I'm nothing, with no control, no meaning and (since I'm not particularly religious) nothing to look forward to after another 40-50 years at best.
Not to bum anyone out, but...
Comment by capt on 08/02/2008 23:21:20
I'd be careful. I have a few friends that cannot smoke or eat weed. It makes them feel terrible or psychotic.
It might be worth a try but . . .
I would ask your Dr. or medical professional about it. Some are smokers themselves others are against it with a passion. I think both sides have some good points.
There is never a simple answer or silver bullet.
Nearly every drug I was on worked at first. I think some of that was placebo effect but some was the mindset that something was working. With the herb I have to keep the mindset that it works for it to work (you know?) - so it also makes sense that different things work for different people.
Bottom line careful with anything. Even the herb can have a side effects profile that makes it not worth it for some folks.
capt on 08/02/2008 23:21:20
Quote by liam1965:
(Replying 8 hours later, sorry, we were out with the kids)
Does the weed actually work?
I've had people suggest I try it, and I'm a little too tight-assed to actually try it so far. But I'm starting to feel like maybe it's that or... eventually give up, which is probably not a good result for my kids.
I'd be careful. I have a few friends that cannot smoke or eat weed. It makes them feel terrible or psychotic.
It might be worth a try but . . .
I would ask your Dr. or medical professional about it. Some are smokers themselves others are against it with a passion. I think both sides have some good points.
There is never a simple answer or silver bullet.
Nearly every drug I was on worked at first. I think some of that was placebo effect but some was the mindset that something was working. With the herb I have to keep the mindset that it works for it to work (you know?) - so it also makes sense that different things work for different people.
Bottom line careful with anything. Even the herb can have a side effects profile that makes it not worth it for some folks.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:21:22
Actually, I've read that that's true. Depressed people tend to see the world more clearly. One common cause of depression is lacking the "rose colored" glasses that most of the world views the world through.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a higher percentage of depression among social liberals than among social conservatives, because I believe part of what makes one able to be socially conservative is the rose colored glasses that allow you not to have empathy for others but to truly believe that you have what you have because you worked for it, and if others had worked the same as you had, they'd have what you have.
It takes someone with their eyes truly open to recognize that virtually no child born in some tenament somewhere in the ghetto grows up to have the things I have, and my meager level of effort and slightly higher than average IQ wouldn't mean crap if I hadn't had the opportunities of an upper-middle-class upbringing and fiscally responsible parents, who could (among other things) send me to college so I didn't have to start out life with huge loans to pay off, and who I know I can trust to pick me up if I take a risk and it doesn't pay off.
It's not that I necessarily have used all that much of my parents' money, but for example, I was able to spend most of my free cash on expanding my house recently, because I knew that if something went wrong, my parents could lend me a quick $10k to tide me over until I could pay it back. That alone gives me the freedom to do some things that wouldn't be responsible to do otherwise, with a family to feed.
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:21:22
Quote by capt:
Actually I have grown fond of my black-dog-days - believe it or not it is a gift. So many people never get to experience the extremes in life. I have danced on the far edges of sanity - you can see more from there than in the middle.
Actually, I've read that that's true. Depressed people tend to see the world more clearly. One common cause of depression is lacking the "rose colored" glasses that most of the world views the world through.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a higher percentage of depression among social liberals than among social conservatives, because I believe part of what makes one able to be socially conservative is the rose colored glasses that allow you not to have empathy for others but to truly believe that you have what you have because you worked for it, and if others had worked the same as you had, they'd have what you have.
It takes someone with their eyes truly open to recognize that virtually no child born in some tenament somewhere in the ghetto grows up to have the things I have, and my meager level of effort and slightly higher than average IQ wouldn't mean crap if I hadn't had the opportunities of an upper-middle-class upbringing and fiscally responsible parents, who could (among other things) send me to college so I didn't have to start out life with huge loans to pay off, and who I know I can trust to pick me up if I take a risk and it doesn't pay off.
It's not that I necessarily have used all that much of my parents' money, but for example, I was able to spend most of my free cash on expanding my house recently, because I knew that if something went wrong, my parents could lend me a quick $10k to tide me over until I could pay it back. That alone gives me the freedom to do some things that wouldn't be responsible to do otherwise, with a family to feed.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 23:25:37
Celexa is the earlier generartion of SSRIs from the same people who make Lexapro. Lexapro is much more refined and has fewer side effect than Celexa (I did my researh when I went on the stuff).
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 23:25:37
Quote by liam1965:Quote by m-hadley:
Heya Mondo, Liam & Capt,
I recently started taking effexor (it is supposed to help with my double-whammy severe depression and peri-menopause - what a fun combo - ugh
The only ones of those I never tried are lithium and celexa. I've read that Celexa is a royal BITCH to get off of...Quote by m-hadley:
I'm hangin' in there - it helps me to think that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation - cliche as it may sound, it helps me to keep things in perspective - since I don't have the luxury of sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon everyday - I love how ginormous feats of nature can put us in our places and make us feel really small in a good way - just mho...
Cheers,
mfaye
:hug: & :dance:
See, my problem is that feeling small is a very BAD thing. I keep thinking how inconsequential all of human existance is in the grand scheme of things. We're a micro-microsecond blip on the radar on a single atom of an ocean of worlds. And my own life is such a tiny little thing, completely forgotten about 20 years after I'm gone (maybe 50 if I'm lucky and my grandkids remember me fondly).
It's hard to feel like anything is important when I keep seeing that grand and glorious hole and realizing that I'm nothing, with no control, no meaning and (since I'm not particularly religious) nothing to look forward to after another 40-50 years at best.
Not to bum anyone out, but...
Celexa is the earlier generartion of SSRIs from the same people who make Lexapro. Lexapro is much more refined and has fewer side effect than Celexa (I did my researh when I went on the stuff).
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:25:47
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:25:47
I've posted this before (or maybe it was on the SMS blog), but if anyone cares, this is an essay I wrote on depression when I was dating my (now) wife, so that she could understand what she was getting into before she married me.
It still gets good comments on a semi-regular basis, even though the blog it's on doesn't get very much traffic otherwise.
What Depression Means To Me
It still gets good comments on a semi-regular basis, even though the blog it's on doesn't get very much traffic otherwise.
What Depression Means To Me
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 23:26:30
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 23:26:30
Now playing: Monty Python's Meaning of Life.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:30:58
Um... Dysthymia being what it is, it's rare when I go for more than 24 hours WITHOUT some suicidal ideation. It's sad, but nearly true, that if I didn't dream of dying and/or killing myself for a few days, I might start to wonder what was wrong.
But that's probably way more information than anyone here really wants or needs. I'm 42 years old, this has been going on since I was in my teens, so it's unlikely it'll ever proceed beyond the ideation, no matter how much on some days I yearn it happening...
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:30:58
Quote by capt:
The most important thing to watch for under all circumstances if suicidal ideation. If the thought crosses your mind - find someone to talk to about it. At those times you might not love yourself but others do and nobody that loves you wants any harm to come to you - ever.
Um... Dysthymia being what it is, it's rare when I go for more than 24 hours WITHOUT some suicidal ideation. It's sad, but nearly true, that if I didn't dream of dying and/or killing myself for a few days, I might start to wonder what was wrong.
But that's probably way more information than anyone here really wants or needs. I'm 42 years old, this has been going on since I was in my teens, so it's unlikely it'll ever proceed beyond the ideation, no matter how much on some days I yearn it happening...
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 23:37:55
Mondobubba on 08/02/2008 23:37:55
:hums "Every Sperm is Sacred" "Birth in the Third World" Yorkshire! I, Mondo am descended from the hearty Yorkshire stock. That and boarder Scots. At least on my father's side of the family. My mother is from extremely boring English stock who have been in this country before it was country.
I, Mondo am descended from the hearty Yorkshire stock. That and boarder Scots. At least on my father's side of the family. My mother is from extremely boring English stock who have been in this country before it was country.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:40:14
I appreciate the warning. I don't THINK it's likely to have that effect on me. I've never understood people whose whole personality changes. When I drink, I get tipsy and maybe a little bit sillier, but I'm still me, and I'd never do anything drunk that I wouldn't do sober (except if it was something that required nerve, but I mean, nothing I would be morally opposed to sober). I've never gone to bed with anyone while drunk that I wouldn't have happily nailed while sober, etc.
But still, worth considering. I'm actually more concerned with the potential of getting into trouble. I have five children and a job that pays me well enough to feed five children, and I'd hate to lose either because someone learned I was using weed on the weekends.
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:40:14
Quote by capt:
I'd be careful. I have a few friends that cannot smoke or eat weed. It makes them feel terrible or psychotic.
It might be worth a try but . . .
I would ask your Dr. or medical professional about it. Some are smokers themselves others are against it with a passion. I think both sides have some good points.
There is never a simple answer or silver bullet.
Nearly every drug I was on worked at first. I think some of that was placebo effect but some was the mindset that something was working. With the herb I have to keep the mindset that it works for it to work (you know?) - so it also makes sense that different things work for different people.
Bottom line careful with anything. Even the herb can have a side effects profile that makes it not worth it for some folks.
I appreciate the warning. I don't THINK it's likely to have that effect on me. I've never understood people whose whole personality changes. When I drink, I get tipsy and maybe a little bit sillier, but I'm still me, and I'd never do anything drunk that I wouldn't do sober (except if it was something that required nerve, but I mean, nothing I would be morally opposed to sober). I've never gone to bed with anyone while drunk that I wouldn't have happily nailed while sober, etc.
But still, worth considering. I'm actually more concerned with the potential of getting into trouble. I have five children and a job that pays me well enough to feed five children, and I'd hate to lose either because someone learned I was using weed on the weekends.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:41:35
liam1965 on 08/02/2008 23:41:35
And now I've successfully read through the day, responded to much of it, and bummed everyone out, so I'm going to go lie down for a bit.
I also have just a hint of a fever, so I think I'm coming down with something.
Thanks for letting me vent. It helps!
Liam.
I also have just a hint of a fever, so I think I'm coming down with something.
Thanks for letting me vent. It helps!
Liam.
Comment by trojanrabbit on 08/03/2008 00:27:43
trojanrabbit on 08/03/2008 00:27:43
All I can say after reading all this is that my thoughts go out to all of you who are opening up about your depression issues. I'm happy that you seem to have found a place where we can all support each other. to Raine and BobR for starting this place and more to all of you.
Have spent all day trying to get my wife's tablet PC up and going after getting the "buritos.exe" virus, of course she has no idea where it came from. Wouldn't boot properly, could only run programs from the Task Manager. Since I'm typing this post on it, I guess it's sorta working but this thing is so slow and erratic the only real fix was to allow the wife to get another laptop.
Hmmm. I'm hearing/feeling thunder. Kitties don't seem to be bothered much yet.
to Raine and BobR for starting this place and more to all of you.Have spent all day trying to get my wife's tablet PC up and going after getting the "buritos.exe" virus, of course she has no idea where it came from. Wouldn't boot properly, could only run programs from the Task Manager. Since I'm typing this post on it, I guess it's sorta working but this thing is so slow and erratic the only real fix was to allow the wife to get another laptop.
Hmmm. I'm hearing/feeling thunder. Kitties don't seem to be bothered much yet.
Comment by Mondobubba on 08/03/2008 00:48:30
Mondobubba on 08/03/2008 00:48:30
The salmon mousse Cracks me up every time.
Cracks me up every time.
Comment by TriSec on 08/03/2008 01:46:49
TriSec on 08/03/2008 01:46:49
And now the Sox trashed the A's...12-2.
Justin Bay is liking it here...last night he had a triple and scored the winning run, tonight he put a two-run shot over the fence...
All is well in the baseball universe.
Justin Bay is liking it here...last night he had a triple and scored the winning run, tonight he put a two-run shot over the fence...
All is well in the baseball universe.
Comment by trojanrabbit on 08/03/2008 02:03:07
For some reason I'm finding it very difficult to follow the Sox this year. Maybe it's the 2 recent WS victories and I don't really care any more. The RW claptrap on the sports shows turns me off. I was better off as part of the "fellowship of the miserable"
trojanrabbit on 08/03/2008 02:03:07
Quote by TriSec:
And now the Sox trashed the A's...12-2.
Justin Bay is liking it here...last night he had a triple and scored the winning run, tonight he put a two-run shot over the fence...
All is well in the baseball universe.
For some reason I'm finding it very difficult to follow the Sox this year. Maybe it's the 2 recent WS victories and I don't really care any more. The RW claptrap on the sports shows turns me off. I was better off as part of the "fellowship of the miserable"
Comment by liam1965 on 08/03/2008 03:40:08
liam1965 on 08/03/2008 03:40:08
Grumble. I just spent a batch of time composing a nice long response to this Huffington Post Article, and then it was too long, so I had to split it into two, and now it looks like they're going to reject it because it was too long.
So I'm going to post it here, because I took the time to write it, damn it SOMEONE is going to read it.
(The original article is about an ABC Snooze bit on McCain in which he (McCain) claims both the "The One" and the "Paris & Britney" ads are issue ads with some humor, and that he's proud of them and stands by them).
-----------------------
First off, Mr. McCain, if you think those ads are about those topics, then you've got a subtly meter that is far in excess of the average American. People aren't watching those ads and saying "Oh, Obama is for higher taxes and against an energy policy that works", they are watching those ads and thinking "What is McCain smoking? Is this all he's got? Really? Britney Spears and Paris Hilton? Obama may be the One?"
But more importantly, can you not be even a little bit honest? First, on taxes, your plans, so far as you've enumerated them, call for significantly more spending while cutting taxes. We've had eight years of borrowing, and we're nigh on bankrupt, to say nothing of not a very good credit risk for our primary creditors (China), how much more do you think they'll lend us? You've said you'll pay for these things with the money we save after we "win" in Iraq and bring the troops home, but you haven't defined what winning is, which leads me to assume we'll be stuck in the Quagmire forever under a McCain administration, just as now.
And on to energy policy. Allowing drilling in more places, when there are lots of undeveloped drilling leases already, and when most of our domestic production is sold overseas anyway? Gas tax holidays that no one with any economic savvy at all thinks will do anything but make the obscene quarterly profits we've just seen even MORE obscene? Where's the investment in alternatives to oil? The solution to being addicted to meth is not to make your own meth in your kitchen, it's to stop using meth.
Obama isn't perfect, but he's putting out plans, he's showing us that he's got what it takes to lead and a plan on where he wants to lead us. You're showing us that you know how to sling mud and laugh in a really creepy way.
Get some substance. Please. Our country needs it.
Liam.
So I'm going to post it here, because I took the time to write it, damn it SOMEONE is going to read it.
(The original article is about an ABC Snooze bit on McCain in which he (McCain) claims both the "The One" and the "Paris & Britney" ads are issue ads with some humor, and that he's proud of them and stands by them).
-----------------------
First off, Mr. McCain, if you think those ads are about those topics, then you've got a subtly meter that is far in excess of the average American. People aren't watching those ads and saying "Oh, Obama is for higher taxes and against an energy policy that works", they are watching those ads and thinking "What is McCain smoking? Is this all he's got? Really? Britney Spears and Paris Hilton? Obama may be the One?"
But more importantly, can you not be even a little bit honest? First, on taxes, your plans, so far as you've enumerated them, call for significantly more spending while cutting taxes. We've had eight years of borrowing, and we're nigh on bankrupt, to say nothing of not a very good credit risk for our primary creditors (China), how much more do you think they'll lend us? You've said you'll pay for these things with the money we save after we "win" in Iraq and bring the troops home, but you haven't defined what winning is, which leads me to assume we'll be stuck in the Quagmire forever under a McCain administration, just as now.
And on to energy policy. Allowing drilling in more places, when there are lots of undeveloped drilling leases already, and when most of our domestic production is sold overseas anyway? Gas tax holidays that no one with any economic savvy at all thinks will do anything but make the obscene quarterly profits we've just seen even MORE obscene? Where's the investment in alternatives to oil? The solution to being addicted to meth is not to make your own meth in your kitchen, it's to stop using meth.
Obama isn't perfect, but he's putting out plans, he's showing us that he's got what it takes to lead and a plan on where he wants to lead us. You're showing us that you know how to sling mud and laugh in a really creepy way.
Get some substance. Please. Our country needs it.
Liam.
Comment by capt on 08/03/2008 04:16:19
Also good reason to know the laws of your local state and county. Some states have very draconian laws. NM is not so bad. Many states have a citation for less than an ounce.
Workplace drug testing is a big concern. I think it takes 30 days (maybe more) to get it out of the system.
Such freedom and liberty - you could kill yourself with tobacco or liquor but you can't help yourself with a little herb.
MPP.org
BTW - I don't think anybody was bummed, to the contrary - it is like a good group session and people are always helped by the love and support of others. A synergy that doesn't exist in a vacuum or in insincere company.
We depressives know it doesn't make us feel better necessarilly or instantly but we get to know more about ourselves by learning more about others. That is a net positive gain even in the darkest of hours.
capt on 08/03/2008 04:16:19
I'm actually more concerned with the potential of getting into trouble. I have five children and a job that pays me well enough to feed five children, and I'd hate to lose either because someone learned I was using weed on the weekends.
Also good reason to know the laws of your local state and county. Some states have very draconian laws. NM is not so bad. Many states have a citation for less than an ounce.
Workplace drug testing is a big concern. I think it takes 30 days (maybe more) to get it out of the system.
Such freedom and liberty - you could kill yourself with tobacco or liquor but you can't help yourself with a little herb.
MPP.org
BTW - I don't think anybody was bummed, to the contrary - it is like a good group session and people are always helped by the love and support of others. A synergy that doesn't exist in a vacuum or in insincere company.
We depressives know it doesn't make us feel better necessarilly or instantly but we get to know more about ourselves by learning more about others. That is a net positive gain even in the darkest of hours.
Comment by Raine on 08/03/2008 04:39:39
Capt.... I am going to start calling you the Doctor... 
:hug:
Raine on 08/03/2008 04:39:39
Quote by capt:I'm actually more concerned with the potential of getting into trouble. I have five children and a job that pays me well enough to feed five children, and I'd hate to lose either because someone learned I was using weed on the weekends.
Also good reason to know the laws of your local state and county. Some states have very draconian laws. NM is not so bad. Many states have a citation for less than an ounce.
Workplace drug testing is a big concern. I think it takes 30 days (maybe more) to get it out of the system.
Such freedom and liberty - you could kill yourself with tobacco or liquor but you can't help yourself with a little herb.
MPP.org
BTW - I don't think anybody was bummed, to the contrary - it is like a good group session and people are always helped by the love and support of others. A synergy that doesn't exist in a vacuum or in insincere company.
We depressives know it doesn't make us feel better necessarilly or instantly but we get to know more about ourselves by learning more about others. That is a net positive gain even in the darkest of hours.
:hug:
Comment by capt on 08/03/2008 04:45:21
capt on 08/03/2008 04:45:21
Comment by Raine on 08/03/2008 04:46:11
:clap:
Amen Liam. Great letter. It might be a good idea--- or NOT (don't wanna suggest anything) --- to post that over on that ultra hip uber cool John McCain Blog.
John McCain is actually, imo, showing some of his truer colors... adn as I have states before, I DO beleive his mental capacity has been diminished since --- well let's say 2000 --- just doesn't have it in him.
This campaign has turned into something that I would expect from Toby Kieth. it is pathetic.
Raine on 08/03/2008 04:46:11
Quote by liam1965:
Grumble. I just spent a batch of time composing a nice long response to this Huffington Post Article, and then it was too long, so I had to split it into two, and now it looks like they're going to reject it because it was too long.
So I'm going to post it here, because I took the time to write it, damn it SOMEONE is going to read it.
(The original article is about an ABC Snooze bit on McCain in which he (McCain) claims both the "The One" and the "Paris & Britney" ads are issue ads with some humor, and that he's proud of them and stands by them).
-----------------------
First off, Mr. McCain, if you think those ads are about those topics, then you've got a subtly meter that is far in excess of the average American. People aren't watching those ads and saying "Oh, Obama is for higher taxes and against an energy policy that works", they are watching those ads and thinking "What is McCain smoking? Is this all he's got? Really? Britney Spears and Paris Hilton? Obama may be the One?"
But more importantly, can you not be even a little bit honest? First, on taxes, your plans, so far as you've enumerated them, call for significantly more spending while cutting taxes. We've had eight years of borrowing, and we're nigh on bankrupt, to say nothing of not a very good credit risk for our primary creditors (China), how much more do you think they'll lend us? You've said you'll pay for these things with the money we save after we "win" in Iraq and bring the troops home, but you haven't defined what winning is, which leads me to assume we'll be stuck in the Quagmire forever under a McCain administration, just as now.
And on to energy policy. Allowing drilling in more places, when there are lots of undeveloped drilling leases already, and when most of our domestic production is sold overseas anyway? Gas tax holidays that no one with any economic savvy at all thinks will do anything but make the obscene quarterly profits we've just seen even MORE obscene? Where's the investment in alternatives to oil? The solution to being addicted to meth is not to make your own meth in your kitchen, it's to stop using meth.
Obama isn't perfect, but he's putting out plans, he's showing us that he's got what it takes to lead and a plan on where he wants to lead us. You're showing us that you know how to sling mud and laugh in a really creepy way.
Get some substance. Please. Our country needs it.
Liam.
Amen Liam. Great letter. It might be a good idea--- or NOT
(don't wanna suggest anything) --- to post that over on that ultra hip uber cool John McCain Blog.John McCain is actually, imo, showing some of his truer colors... adn as I have states before, I DO beleive his mental capacity has been diminished since --- well let's say 2000 --- just doesn't have it in him.
This campaign has turned into something that I would expect from Toby Kieth. it is pathetic.
Comment by capt on 08/03/2008 04:55:09
capt on 08/03/2008 04:55:09
I think McCain has lost it.
The BS being pushed is amazing. Bush is running the show and we all know how well everything he does works out.
McCain doesn't even seem serious or sincere - to me. If other people get the same feeling he is toast.
But then again I am seldom in the majority of anything. . .
The BS being pushed is amazing. Bush is running the show and we all know how well everything he does works out.
McCain doesn't even seem serious or sincere - to me. If other people get the same feeling he is toast.
But then again I am seldom in the majority of anything. . .
Comment by liam1965 on 08/03/2008 05:02:18
liam1965 on 08/03/2008 05:02:18
I agree, Raine. In 2000, he was among my favorites. I'm embarassed to admit I actually bought into the idea that Gore was a fabricator (early on, before they overdid it and some of the "lies" started to unravel, at which point the earlier ones, for which it was really just one person's word against another started to seem less credible as well) during the primaries, and so I voted for McCain in the Republican primary (I love that in NH I can, as a registered Independent, vote in either primary, just not BOTH).
Early on that year, (when there were four candidates left running) my choices in order were McCain, Bradley, Gore, Bush. Of course, as so often happens for me, my last choice won.
But the point is that McCain learned all the wrong lessons from the ass whuppin' he took at W's (and Rove's) hand, and I agree he's also lost a step. I'm not entirely sure that the whole "maverick" thing was just a fiction back in 2000, I think back then he really was willing to buck his party for what he believed was right.
Nowadays, he doesn't seem willing to do ANYTHING that differentiates him from Bush, and as you point out, he's lost a whole batch of savvy. It isn't his chronological age that bothers me, it's his mental age.
He's the grumpy old man who thinks that since he's seen so much of life, he doesn't need anyone explaining things to him, just at the time when life has passed him by and he really DOESN'T understand the new world.
Hell, McCain is certain that the War on Terror™ can be won using traditional military tactics. It clearly can't be. Traditional military tactics are all based on the idea that you're facing a traditional army, with traditional supply lines and traditional command structures and a home territory that can also be attacked.
How do you defeat a group like al Qaeda with traditional military tactics? How do you cut off their supply lines? How to you eliminate their support by taking out the capital of their country?
And the worst of it is, I think McCain has started to buy his own line of BS. There was a time when he'd tell you what he didn't know. He'd admit his own weaknesses, or at least some of them. He avoided talk about his military record, largely because with one notable exception, it's really not all that distinguished.
Now he claims to be the military tactician who "knows how to win wars", in spite of the fact that he's never in his life participated in a war that was won.
I think he's created a fiction for himself and in his dottage has begun to actually believe it. In some ways, I honestly fear for this country if he is elected, in ways more than just the financial ruin another 8 years of borrow-and-spend would bring, or the ultimate insecurity another 8 years of cultivating new generations of martyrs against the "great satan" while taxing our military to the point that none are left when we really need them.
In some ways, I'm very much afraid of a McCain Presidency.
Liam.
Early on that year, (when there were four candidates left running) my choices in order were McCain, Bradley, Gore, Bush. Of course, as so often happens for me, my last choice won.
But the point is that McCain learned all the wrong lessons from the ass whuppin' he took at W's (and Rove's) hand, and I agree he's also lost a step. I'm not entirely sure that the whole "maverick" thing was just a fiction back in 2000, I think back then he really was willing to buck his party for what he believed was right.
Nowadays, he doesn't seem willing to do ANYTHING that differentiates him from Bush, and as you point out, he's lost a whole batch of savvy. It isn't his chronological age that bothers me, it's his mental age.
He's the grumpy old man who thinks that since he's seen so much of life, he doesn't need anyone explaining things to him, just at the time when life has passed him by and he really DOESN'T understand the new world.
Hell, McCain is certain that the War on Terror™ can be won using traditional military tactics. It clearly can't be. Traditional military tactics are all based on the idea that you're facing a traditional army, with traditional supply lines and traditional command structures and a home territory that can also be attacked.
How do you defeat a group like al Qaeda with traditional military tactics? How do you cut off their supply lines? How to you eliminate their support by taking out the capital of their country?
And the worst of it is, I think McCain has started to buy his own line of BS. There was a time when he'd tell you what he didn't know. He'd admit his own weaknesses, or at least some of them. He avoided talk about his military record, largely because with one notable exception, it's really not all that distinguished.
Now he claims to be the military tactician who "knows how to win wars", in spite of the fact that he's never in his life participated in a war that was won.
I think he's created a fiction for himself and in his dottage has begun to actually believe it. In some ways, I honestly fear for this country if he is elected, in ways more than just the financial ruin another 8 years of borrow-and-spend would bring, or the ultimate insecurity another 8 years of cultivating new generations of martyrs against the "great satan" while taxing our military to the point that none are left when we really need them.
In some ways, I'm very much afraid of a McCain Presidency.
Liam.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/03/2008 05:09:44
But the problem is that thinking people are rare. Fox News and the neocons have managed to polarize this country to the point that the majority of our fellow citizens knee-jerk vote their party. Perhaps it was always thus, but at this point, the Republicans have managed to convince people whose best interests lie (if given only those two options) with the Democrats that being liberal is somehow a failing, and some people who most need a few liberal policies will proudly vote conservative and tell you it's because they support conservative values.
McCain will take a large number of votes from people who have become conditioned to think that a Republican monkey would be better than a liberal Winston Churchill. He will also take a fair number of votes from people who can't vote for a black man out of fear or hatred of those who are different. And he'll take a batch from the PUMAs, mostly aging women and their husbands who can't grasp that Hillary losing the primary wasn't because of sexism any more than their support of Clinton against Obama was racism, and who also can't grasp that voting against your principles out of spite makes you stupid in the extreme.
That, "my friends", is why this is still close, when it should be a blowout. Obama isn't wrong when he says that his name and his skin color (excuse me, the fact that he "doesn't look like all the other Presidents on the currency") are not an asset to him.
It is not inconceivable that McCain could win just on the strength of the tradition that Presidents are white men, no matter how insanely bad that would be for the country.
liam1965 on 08/03/2008 05:09:44
Quote by capt:
I think McCain has lost it.
The BS being pushed is amazing. Bush is running the show and we all know how well everything he does works out.
McCain doesn't even seem serious or sincere - to me. If other people get the same feeling he is toast.
But then again I am seldom in the majority of anything. . .
But the problem is that thinking people are rare. Fox News and the neocons have managed to polarize this country to the point that the majority of our fellow citizens knee-jerk vote their party. Perhaps it was always thus, but at this point, the Republicans have managed to convince people whose best interests lie (if given only those two options) with the Democrats that being liberal is somehow a failing, and some people who most need a few liberal policies will proudly vote conservative and tell you it's because they support conservative values.
McCain will take a large number of votes from people who have become conditioned to think that a Republican monkey would be better than a liberal Winston Churchill. He will also take a fair number of votes from people who can't vote for a black man out of fear or hatred of those who are different. And he'll take a batch from the PUMAs, mostly aging women and their husbands who can't grasp that Hillary losing the primary wasn't because of sexism any more than their support of Clinton against Obama was racism, and who also can't grasp that voting against your principles out of spite makes you stupid in the extreme.
That, "my friends", is why this is still close, when it should be a blowout. Obama isn't wrong when he says that his name and his skin color (excuse me, the fact that he "doesn't look like all the other Presidents on the currency") are not an asset to him.
It is not inconceivable that McCain could win just on the strength of the tradition that Presidents are white men, no matter how insanely bad that would be for the country.
Comment by liam1965 on 08/03/2008 05:12:05
liam1965 on 08/03/2008 05:12:05
And once again, I'm taking over. Sigh. Sorry, I'll shut up now and head to sleep.
G'night all. Sweet dreams.
G'night all. Sweet dreams.
Comment by capt on 08/03/2008 05:30:11
capt on 08/03/2008 05:30:11
Well consider this - Obama has already won in that if the country is that pathetic a man of color has made history.
Not that I think it will happen. I think you might be deceived and manipulated by the M$M. They have to have this BS horserace - keep an eye on the EV's at RCP without toss ups Obama has 322. I will not worry about McCain until the numbers are reversed.
If they can convince you McCain can win, then the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers are a lock. I think you need to wait a bit before the handwringing is even considered - but that might be just me.
It could work to Barack's advantage if it looks like it is close. Maybe that will bring people out of the woodwork. McCain is too old and he is way too scary for too many people. He can't fill a coffee shop to speak. He will lose unless there is a sea change in the race - that hasn't happened yet. No reason to fret over hypotheticals.
Not that I think it will happen. I think you might be deceived and manipulated by the M$M. They have to have this BS horserace - keep an eye on the EV's at RCP without toss ups Obama has 322. I will not worry about McCain until the numbers are reversed.
If they can convince you McCain can win, then the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers are a lock. I think you need to wait a bit before the handwringing is even considered - but that might be just me.
It could work to Barack's advantage if it looks like it is close. Maybe that will bring people out of the woodwork. McCain is too old and he is way too scary for too many people. He can't fill a coffee shop to speak. He will lose unless there is a sea change in the race - that hasn't happened yet. No reason to fret over hypotheticals.
Comment by capt on 08/03/2008 05:44:57
capt on 08/03/2008 05:44:57
Some of the most accurate numbers come from
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
Barack has the numbers - now under 90 days some of which will be eclipsed by the Olympics - I, for one, am not worried a bit.
Refuse to live in fear. THAT is what the M$M sells you know?
Trust me a win will not be a ticket to good governance. Obama is not left enough and he will PO many of us - much of the time. The Obama presidency is plenty bad enough to fret about. No reason to go so far as to consider a McCain debacle.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
Barack has the numbers - now under 90 days some of which will be eclipsed by the Olympics - I, for one, am not worried a bit.
Refuse to live in fear. THAT is what the M$M sells you know?
Trust me a win will not be a ticket to good governance. Obama is not left enough and he will PO many of us - much of the time. The Obama presidency is plenty bad enough to fret about. No reason to go so far as to consider a McCain debacle.