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Let's Talk About Guns, Baby..
Author: BobR    Date: 07/25/2012 11:21:26

 
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. - U.S. Constitution, 2nd Amendment

The horrific shooting / mass murder that occurred in Aurora, CO last week has once again reignited the discussion about guns in America. There are some that say "now is not the time" to have this discussion. Every single person that says that is against gun regulations, and knows that having these discussions after a nightmare scenario like this will go against their agenda. One has to wonder what that agenda is based on, and whether they believe any gun regulations are acceptable (for the most part - no).

Some people have bought into the notion of the U.S. as the last bastion of the wild frontier, where cowboys have shoot-outs and settlers fight off injuns. Some people have bought into the fear that crime is all around them, and their only respite is via a firearm. Some people have watched too many movies and/or played too many video games and think guns are cool.

Let's stop and take a reality check: Guns are designed to kill. With the exception of hunting rifles, guns are one of those very rare products that are illegal to use for their intended purpose. Some states have passed laws making killing another person "okay" if you feel your life is in danger (THAT worked out well for Trayvon Martin), but for the most part, guns are designed to kill people, and it is against the law to do that. Some guns (like the AR-15) do that very efficiently.

So let's brush aside all tangential reasons people buy guns and get to the crux of it: guns are not toys, they're not an equalizer, they're not some romantic link to our past. They are simple killing machines.

But - some would point to the 2nd amendment and claim that it is their right to own a gun. Taken in its totality, the amendment clearly indicates the purpose for owning a gun is to maintain a well-regulated militia (ie: The National Guard). However, that argument has long left the building - even the Supreme Court has backed down from that.

People who use our nation's founding and history as a justification for personal gun ownership state that the purpose was to prevent the populace from being overrun by a tyranical government. They reason that should it become necessary, "the people" can take the country back from tyranny, and they'll need their firearms to do so.

Really...

The last time "the people" tried that was the American Civil War. How did that work out? The Confederacy put up a good fight, but ultimately lost. Since that time the U.S. military has become the biggest most powerful military on the planet, with sophisticated weaponry, technology, and training. What possible chance would some rag-tag outfit of dissidents have against that? I am only guessing, but I suspect that the people who believe we need private gun ownership as a hedge against tyranny also idolize the U.S. Armed Forces. Do they not see the disconnect? Who do they think would be defending the U.S. Government and it's law-abiding citizens? If they think THEY can take on the military, what chance do we have against other countries?

The next main argument for gun ownership is that it provides safety. "If everyone were armed, there'd be less crime" so they say. Rep. Louie Goehmert (R-TX) wondered aloud after the shooting that if someone in the crowd was packing heat, there would have been a lot less bloodshed. It's time for another reality check...

The theatre was dark, the shooter was wearing a bullet-proof vest, and the place was total chaos. I am guessing that someone with a gun would be much more likely ducking and running than pulling out their pistol and firing back. It's one thing to go to a shooting range and practice shooting at a paper target. It's quite another thing to take a bead on another human being and pull the trigger. It's a MUCH different thing to do that while being shot at. That's one thing you don't get to experience while taking target practice - getting shot at. Even cops and soldiers have to overcome that fear and urge to hide when the bullets start flying. That's why they have "live fire" training. Do people really think some average Joe is going to pull a Dirty Harry the first time they encounter that situation? Would Louie Goehmert have pulled out a gun and started firing back? We both know the answer to that one.

The final big argument against gun regulations is that it would only keep guns from "law abiding citizens" - criminals are going to break the law anyway. The flaw with this argument is that these types of mass-shootings are almost always perpetrated by "law-abiding citizens", not people with a criminal record... So apparently, the regulations we have in place aren't preventing these from occurring, and perhaps it's time to look for new ways to address the problem.

The first thing that's necessary is to realize that while "keeping and bearing arms" may be a right, unfettered access to purchasing and selling them is not. There is also the notion that because it's a right enumerated in the Bill of Rights, no limitations can be made. That is, of course, absurd. Public safety and public good have always trump individual liberties. Freedom of Speech is limited by making it illegal to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater (just one example). Freedom of the Press is limited by making it illegal to print lies about a person (or face a lawsuit). Freedom of religion is limited in numerous ways - just ask the Fundamental Mormons about polygamy; you also can't stone a woman for adultery.

So limitations on the 2nd amendment would be in keeping with a tradition in America of setting limitations on rights when it seems necessary for the common good. It is already illegal for citizens to own certain types of arms (bombs, etc.), and even NRA-purists would likely agree with keeping guns out of the hands of convicted criminals and those diagnosed with certain mental illnesses. So enacting some other common-sense regulations are well within our bounds to protect our citizenry, insure domestic tranquility, and provide for the common defense:

  • Close the "gun show loophole". Make it illegal to sell a firearm without going through the proper channels.
  • Prohibit online sales of guns or ammunition.
  • Track all sales through a central government DB, so that red flags can be thrown when someone starts amassing an arsenal.
  • Make certain firearms illegal to own (assault rifles and/or guns that can be converted to automatic fire)
  • Make safety training required for every firearm purchased, with a tax penalty for those who fail to comply.

None of these regulations violate the 2nd amendment. They don't violate a right to keep and bear arms, they simply ensure that firearms purchases are tracked, as are the people who buy them. This is just a start, but had these regulations been in place, the tragedy in Colorado would likely have been nipped in the bud before it happened.

It's time to have that discussion. We start by changing the debate from the current paradigm of "gun regulations limit ownership and are unconstitutional" to the reality that "regulations on internal arms trafficking are not unconstitutional". They do not limit ownership, they only regulate the business of selling them.
 

72 comments (Latest Comment: 07/26/2012 02:38:49 by wickedpam)
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Comment by trojanrabbit on 07/25/2012 12:07:39
Good morning everyone.

It is indeed unfortunate that neither Louie Goehmert nor Russell Pearce were present in that theater to show us "cowards" how it's done. Good luck getting a guy in body armor while you're choking on gas. I'm surprised The Nuge hasn't spewed forth yet.

Sounds like test material. You're going for a gun license. You're presented with this scenario. What do you do?

Duh....ah'd fahr at all dem flashes and keep a fahrin until mah gun was empty. Then ah'd draw mah other gun.


Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 12:10:39
good morning!

Excellent post.

Comment by TriSec on 07/25/2012 12:12:58
Morning, comrades!

An interesting point about the "well-regulated militia". Last summer, I had the good fortune of attending a presentation about the Minutemen along the battle road. The reason the second amendment is in place is because during the colonial era, the King did indeed try (and many times succeeded) in capturing and removing weapons.

During that time, all able-bodied males were expected to have a firearm of some sort, and they all drilled on the town green every Sunday after church. It took some time, but over the years, the local governments began compensating those men for their time and supplies, and a "National Guard" of sorts was born.

When Paul Revere rode through and raised the alarm on that fateful night, the response was nearly instant; in under a half-hour in most cases, disciplined and trained men were in place in the town center, ready to face any challenge by the royal authority.

Fast-forward 200 years....and if another Paul Revere rode through town raising an alarm, how quickly do you think the government could get a similar number of Reservists to the point of trouble?

"Well-Regulated Militia" is a myth, although it is based in fact. Honestly, I don't think it's the Constitution that has changed; it's our modern society and military structure that is out of step with the original intent.

Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 12:56:40
Morning

I would add yearly or bi-yearly re-training and safety classes and retesting to renew a permit

Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 12:58:45
BTW - Tri - Congrats on the really great news!

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 13:01:24
Holy Crap. I am fairly sure the Romney camp will denounce this...

In remarks that may prompt accusations of racial insensitivity, one suggested that Mr Romney was better placed to understand the depth of ties between the two countries than Mr Obama, whose father was from Africa.

"We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special,” the adviser said of Mr Romney, adding: "The White House didn't fully appreciate the shared history we have".
ETA: how can he denounce that part of the article and not the rest?

Comment by trojanrabbit on 07/25/2012 13:10:20
Quote by Raine:
Holy Crap. I am fairly sure the Romney camp will denounce this...

In remarks that may prompt accusations of racial insensitivity, one suggested that Mr Romney was better placed to understand the depth of ties between the two countries than Mr Obama, whose father was from Africa.

"We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special,” the adviser said of Mr Romney, adding: "The White House didn't fully appreciate the shared history we have".
ETA: how can he denounce that part of the article and not the rest?

Wasn't Rmoney's dad Mexican?

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 13:19:50
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Quote by Raine:
Holy Crap. I am fairly sure the Romney camp will denounce this...

In remarks that may prompt accusations of racial insensitivity, one suggested that Mr Romney was better placed to understand the depth of ties between the two countries than Mr Obama, whose father was from Africa.

"We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special,” the adviser said of Mr Romney, adding: "The White House didn't fully appreciate the shared history we have".
ETA: how can he denounce that part of the article and not the rest?

Wasn't Rmoney's dad Mexican?
Actually -- He was a victim of Patriotic Americans who fled the country because they couldn't marry more than one woman.


Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 13:39:26
Comment by TriSec on 07/25/2012 14:11:25
Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 14:14:24
I really wish they would stop having people like Billy and Art on the show

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 14:15:15
Quote by wickedpam:
I really wish they would stop having people like Billy and Art on the show
Billy especially.


Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 14:16:49
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
I really wish they would stop having people like Billy and Art on the show
Billy especially.


he is a poor rep of his state - I know much nicer people in Texas


Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 14:24:16
I started reading this thinking I had heard of Tom Loeffler before, turns out I was right....
a ThinkProgress review of Foreign Agent Registration Act reveals that Loeffler registered in February as a registered agent for a foreign government: the Hong Kong Trade Development Council (HKTDC).

The agreement — signed by Loeffler — stipulated that, from February 13 through June 30, 2012, he would “protect, promote, assist and develop Hong King’s economic and trade interests in the United States of America” by working with Congress and the executive branch. In exchange, the HKTDC agreed to pay Akin Gum $35,775 per month. The Romney bundling all took place during the time Loeffler was under this initial contract, though it is unclear whether the contract was renewed at the end of June.

Loeffler has a long history of raising money for Republican presidential candidates. In 2008, Loeffler stepped down from his position as a national finance co-chair for John McCain’s campaign when Newsweek discovered that he had lobbied on behalf of Saudi Arabia. But Romney’s campaign has welcomed him back into the campaign fundraising fold.


Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 14:29:46
here is another peach of a Bundler for Romney, this dude played a part in the Valerie Plame leaks.
Lobbyist Richard Hohlt, an influential Washington figure for years who gave $20,500 to Restore Our Future and bundled $22,500 for Romney's campaign, was described by the late Robert Novak in his testimony at the trial of Scooter Libby that he talked to the lobbyist about Plame's identity. Per a Times story from 2009: (snip)

The blowing of Plame's cover became a major story in the lead-up to George W. Bush's reelection. Libby was a high-up administration official, and the outing of covert operative Plame — a move related to her husband, former U.S. Ambasador Joe Wilson — ended her career.

Romney said in his VFW speech earlier today that his White House would never "reveal classified material for political gain." Romney officials declined comment.



Comment by Mondobubba on 07/25/2012 14:35:50
Quote by Raine:
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Quote by Raine:
Holy Crap. I am fairly sure the Romney camp will denounce this...

In remarks that may prompt accusations of racial insensitivity, one suggested that Mr Romney was better placed to understand the depth of ties between the two countries than Mr Obama, whose father was from Africa.

"We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special,” the adviser said of Mr Romney, adding: "The White House didn't fully appreciate the shared history we have".
ETA: how can he denounce that part of the article and not the rest?

Wasn't Rmoney's dad Mexican?
Actually -- He was a victim of Patriotic Americans who fled the country because they couldn't marry more than one woman.



There is this great scene in 'Big Love" when Roman Grant is dictating a letter to his senators against any amendments that define marriage as being between one man and one woman.

Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 14:36:33
Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 14:56:42

he was great last night.

Comment by BobR on 07/25/2012 14:57:08
Quote by Raine:

he was great last night.

LOVED IT!

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 15:10:33
Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/25/2012 15:14:54



First BobR, thanks for a great blog and I will comment more fully later.

Raine, there is a blessing, courtesy of the late author Anne McCaffray which applies to Mister Taranto: May his orifices congeal and his extremities rot off.

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 15:29:38
Quote by Will in Chicago:



First BobR, thanks for a great blog and I will comment more fully later.

Raine, there is a blessing, courtesy of the late author Anne McCaffray which applies to Mister Taranto: May his orifices congeal and his extremities rot off.
That is far too kind, Will.

I just don't understand where such thoughts come from. It's almost diseased.


Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 15:41:00
James Holmes received a grant from the National Institute of Health, (NIH), grant for his post-graduate studies. An analyst on CBS This Morning was discussing Holmes' purchases of the massive amount of weapons and ammunition used in the Aurora, Colorado theater.
His closing line was that, although inadvertent, the NIH grant made this the first federally financed mass shooting (paraphrased).


It's shit like this in the media that makes me want to burn down the WHOLE motherfuckin' thing.

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 15:57:10
Quote by Scoopster:
James Holmes received a grant from the National Institute of Health, (NIH), grant for his post-graduate studies. An analyst on CBS This Morning was discussing Holmes' purchases of the massive amount of weapons and ammunition used in the Aurora, Colorado theater.
His closing line was that, although inadvertent, the NIH grant made this the first federally financed mass shooting (paraphrased).


It's shit like this in the media that makes me want to burn down the WHOLE motherfuckin' thing.
I was waiting for someone to go there. Where is this link from, Scoop?


Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 15:58:10
I do love the British quirkiness, I may tune in for the opening ceremonies

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 16:02:55
So WTH is going on in Anaheim?

Comment by trojanrabbit on 07/25/2012 16:03:51
Hmmm. RevolutionBoston has been off the air for a few days.

"Technical difficulties"

Still available via streaming.

Was losing the Dial Global talent a sign of things to come.....

Comment by trojanrabbit on 07/25/2012 16:05:14
Is something quirky going on with Firefox?

Refresh Comments and quoting doesn't seem to work right.

I've rebooted. Things are OK on IE.

ETA - now quoting is working.

Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 16:07:26
Hmm anyone else having issues with the page not auto-refreshing/posting your comments?

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 16:08:43
Quote by Scoopster:
Hmm anyone else having issues with the page not auto-refreshing/posting your comments?
This page?

I use safari -- it has never auto refreshed forme.


Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 16:09:01
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
James Holmes received a grant from the National Institute of Health, (NIH), grant for his post-graduate studies. An analyst on CBS This Morning was discussing Holmes' purchases of the massive amount of weapons and ammunition used in the Aurora, Colorado theater.
His closing line was that, although inadvertent, the NIH grant made this the first federally financed mass shooting (paraphrased).


It's shit like this in the media that makes me want to burn down the WHOLE motherfuckin' thing.
I was waiting for someone to go there. Where is this link from, Scoop?

I got it from here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/25/1113495/-You-knew-it-was-coming-Federally-Financed-Mass-Shooting

Not seeing anyone else pick up on it yet.

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 16:09:25
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Is something quirky going on with Firefox?

Refresh Comments and quoting doesn't seem to work right.

I've rebooted. Things are OK on IE.

ETA - now quoting is working.
Huh, sounds like a firefox dealio.


Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 16:10:54
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
Hmm anyone else having issues with the page not auto-refreshing/posting your comments?
This page?

I use safari -- it has never auto refreshed for me.

Doh.. I mean refreshing when I click the refresh link


Comment by trojanrabbit on 07/25/2012 16:14:17
Quote by Scoopster:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
Hmm anyone else having issues with the page not auto-refreshing/posting your comments?
This page?

I use safari -- it has never auto refreshed for me.

Doh.. I mean refreshing when I click the refresh link

Yup, not working for me on Firefox, but IE is OK

Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 16:15:07
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/25/2012 16:21:01
Quote by Scoopster:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
James Holmes received a grant from the National Institute of Health, (NIH), grant for his post-graduate studies. An analyst on CBS This Morning was discussing Holmes' purchases of the massive amount of weapons and ammunition used in the Aurora, Colorado theater.
His closing line was that, although inadvertent, the NIH grant made this the first federally financed mass shooting (paraphrased).


It's shit like this in the media that makes me want to burn down the WHOLE motherfuckin' thing.
I was waiting for someone to go there. Where is this link from, Scoop?

I got it from here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/25/1113495/-You-knew-it-was-coming-Federally-Financed-Mass-Shooting

Not seeing anyone else pick up on it yet.



So we shouldn't be providing research grants?? WTF

Comment by BobR on 07/25/2012 16:21:34
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Quote by Scoopster:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
Hmm anyone else having issues with the page not auto-refreshing/posting your comments?
This page?

I use safari -- it has never auto refreshed for me.

Doh.. I mean refreshing when I click the refresh link

Yup, not working for me on Firefox, but IE is OK

That's odd. The code uses Ajax to update the new comments info, to refresh the comments when clicking on the link, and to quote a comment. Is it possible that Ajax is blocked by default on FireFox?


Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 16:23:00
Quote by Scoopster:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
James Holmes received a grant from the National Institute of Health, (NIH), grant for his post-graduate studies. An analyst on CBS This Morning was discussing Holmes' purchases of the massive amount of weapons and ammunition used in the Aurora, Colorado theater.
His closing line was that, although inadvertent, the NIH grant made this the first federally financed mass shooting (paraphrased).


It's shit like this in the media that makes me want to burn down the WHOLE motherfuckin' thing.
I was waiting for someone to go there. Where is this link from, Scoop?

I got it from here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/25/1113495/-You-knew-it-was-coming-Federally-Financed-Mass-Shooting

Not seeing anyone else pick up on it yet.



I had heard that yesterday, it was a fleeting mention but can't remember who said it.

Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/25/2012 16:24:50
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Hmmm. RevolutionBoston has been off the air for a few days.

"Technical difficulties"

Still available via streaming.

Was losing the Dial Global talent a sign of things to come.....



I was in Phoenix when On Second Thought Radio on KNUV went down after the Drobneys wrecked Nova M Radio. So, this sounds like it might be a similar story.

I have not tuned in to Revolution Radio locally on WCPT, but if Jeff Santos is going to be off the air, at least Chicago will get Hartmann and Goldman for the full length of their shows. However, if I move to Boston, I will be greatly annoyed if it turns out that Revolution Radio was an unsustainable vanity project by a host with more money than talent or sense.


Comment by trojanrabbit on 07/25/2012 16:26:34
Quote by BobR:
Quote by trojanrabbit:
Quote by Scoopster:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Scoopster:
Hmm anyone else having issues with the page not auto-refreshing/posting your comments?
This page?

I use safari -- it has never auto refreshed for me.

Doh.. I mean refreshing when I click the refresh link

Yup, not working for me on Firefox, but IE is OK

That's odd. The code uses Ajax to update the new comments info, to refresh the comments when clicking on the link, and to quote a comment. Is it possible that Ajax is blocked by default on FireFox?

Thought it worked quite recently. Now if I use left click, nothing happens. If I right click on that Refresh Comments link I can select Reload and it works. Weird.

Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 16:28:04
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/imgs/home/120725-an-american-dog-whistle-in-london.jpg


Comment by Raine on 07/25/2012 16:29:25
Quote by Scoopster:
OK got the link to the story & video clip from the CBS News website.
Thanks!


Comment by Will in Chicago on 07/25/2012 16:37:20
BobR, from looking at the tragedy in Colorado, it seems that Seal Team Six -- among the most elite warriors on Earth -- would not have liked the situation in the theater as the shooter wore armor over most of his body, used smoke grenades or tear gas grenades, and was in the dark.

I think that sane, rational gun laws can help. We need background checks and have someone screen people applying for gun licenses for mental health issues. (When I get a driver's license, I need to have my eyes examined.)

No right is absolute, including gun ownership. Just as I do not have the right to shout fire in a crowded theater or decide that human sacrifice is a part of my religious practices, I do not think that I have a Constitutional right to unlimited access to every sort of weapon known to humanity.

Comment by livingonli on 07/25/2012 17:21:59
Good day, folks. There are also some issues with the refresh issues on Chrome since that is the principle browser that I use. The gun nuts do seem insane and stupid with the way they want it so aboslute.

Comment by TriSec on 07/25/2012 17:23:01
Hi folks.

I've been informed that chemo will make me light-sensitive, so I've been out in the sun while I still can. (Yes, working on that skin cancer. Drive to Waltham and slap me, go ahead.)

I've also discovered a use for that decaf that's been kicking around the house...I've just brewed a full pot of Decaf/Heavy Caf mix that will land in the fridge for iced coffee.

Anyway...



Comment by TriSec on 07/25/2012 17:25:38
Refresh works just fine for me, BTW. I can see the new comment indicator, and clicking on it works just fine.

Google Chrome; 20.0.1132.57 m

Comment by Scoopster on 07/25/2012 17:44:58
Oh goodness.. note on FB from Ed Schultz saying that his wife has ovarian cancer.

Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 17:54:42
Quote by Scoopster:
Oh goodness.. note on FB from Ed Schultz saying that his wife has ovarian cancer.



Pap had him on for a short bit- he was really broken up about it, says he just wants to be by his wife right now. She had surgery yesterday and he said it looks like they got it all


Comment by wickedpam on 07/25/2012 17:57:23