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Libertarian Saturday
Author: TriSec
Date: 07/12/2008 13:35:39
Good Morning!
Ah, a delightfully lazy Saturday around these parts. We've got nothing planned, nothing pressing that needs doing, and nowhere to go. So maybe we'll make use of some local charm and get out and do something "summery".
Anyway...that won't stop me from starting with a subject that's near and dear to me. Ballot Access.
Among the major candidates, we take for granted that they'll be listed in all 50 states. That's not the case with third-party or lesser candidates...they have to fight for every line of print. But that's because 'the powers' made it that way.
This year, for the first time since Ross Perot, a serious candidate is making inroads among the right. It's Bob Barr, Libertarian of Georgia. We'll start in Senator McCain's home state of Arizona with this news. Apparently, he's trailing Obama by 3% in his own backyard.
Dangerous for the Republicans, yes. But perhaps good news for the rest of us. A conservative blogger at another website has an interesting take on this. It's worth the read, and I apologize in advance for linking to it (never mind the ads). It's about why Mr. Barr won't be on the ballot in all 50 states.
Now, all this talk of Mr. Barr might make some of you wonder about me again. Well, I'm perhaps the rarest of breeds....a left-leaning Libertarian in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I'm also a pragmatist. The Libertarian party has many things going for it this year, and this election cycle is going to be a huge success for the party between the attention garnered by Ron Paul and Bob Barr's candidacies. But we're not going to win, and none of us can afford to throw away votes for a dream. (are you listening, Hillary supporters?)
Yes, I'm sorry we may never see a viable third party in my lifetime, and I'm sorry the system is so geared towards the major parties that it's hard to even make inroads. But the election this year isn't about me, it's about us. I'm going to do what's right for America, and if my personal beliefs have to go on the back burner for the good of the rest of us for a time, so be it.
Ah, a delightfully lazy Saturday around these parts. We've got nothing planned, nothing pressing that needs doing, and nowhere to go. So maybe we'll make use of some local charm and get out and do something "summery".
Anyway...that won't stop me from starting with a subject that's near and dear to me. Ballot Access.
Among the major candidates, we take for granted that they'll be listed in all 50 states. That's not the case with third-party or lesser candidates...they have to fight for every line of print. But that's because 'the powers' made it that way.
This year, for the first time since Ross Perot, a serious candidate is making inroads among the right. It's Bob Barr, Libertarian of Georgia. We'll start in Senator McCain's home state of Arizona with this news. Apparently, he's trailing Obama by 3% in his own backyard.
Phoenix - In a sign of continued weakness in his home state, an online poll shows Sen. John McCain trailing Sen. Barack Obama by 3-percentage points in Arizona. The poll also shows the candidacy of Liberterian Bob Barr is having a significant impact on McCain's campaign by siphoning off conservative voters nationwide.
The Arizona poll was part of nationwide Zogby International poll that put Obama ahead in total electoral votes with 273 to 160 for McCain. The poll found 11 states with 105 electoral votes too close to call -- including Arizona. McCain's campaign in June included Arizona among its list of swing states.
McCain not only faced problems with Independent voters, he is losing a small, but potentially lethal voting block of the GOP right to Barr. The former Republican congressman from Georgia is pulling just enough voters in many states to shift the balance to Obama. Whether this bloc will remain in Barr's camp on election day could determine the outcome.
"Barr is hurting McCain all across the country," said Fritz Wenzel, director of communications for Zogby.
The Zogby poll of 1,142 likely Arizona voters was conducted June 11-30, with a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points. The survey found Obama leading in Arizona with 42 percent of the vote, followed by McCain with 39 percent. Barr had 7 percent, followed by Independent Ralph Nader with 2 percent. Five percent of the voters selected other candidates and 5 percent were undecided.
Wenzel said 16 percent of Arizona voters who described themselves as very conservative said they would vote for Barr, with 64 percent backing McCain. The double-digit defection to Barr signals further trouble ahead for Arizona's senior Senator.
"That's very dangerous for a Republican candidate," Wentzel said.
Dangerous for the Republicans, yes. But perhaps good news for the rest of us. A conservative blogger at another website has an interesting take on this. It's worth the read, and I apologize in advance for linking to it (never mind the ads). It's about why Mr. Barr won't be on the ballot in all 50 states.
...Perhaps Barr can make up for voter apathy among civil Libertarians by courting disenchanted conservatives unwilling to vote for John McCain. Barr’s stances on taxation, for example, have been more consistently “conservative” than McCain’s, and it would not be surprising if economic conservatives began favoring Barr for that reason.
Barr will face a second obstacle — ballot access regulations, which vary from state to state. These regulate which names appear on ballots (or, more often the case, which do not). The U.S. Constitution, under Article I, Section IV, grants states autonomy to choose where, when, and how to carry out federal elections. This power, although rightly granted to states, has led to more restrictions than freedoms. States often (mis)use this power to deter “frivolous” candidacies and, in doing so, threaten some of the most treasured privileges of American citizenship: the right of citizens to run for political office, to form political parties, and to petition the government.
Libertarians will not attain ballot access in all fifty states because restrictions are simply too onerous; they may hope for write-in votes, but those never win elections (unless you are Strom Thurmond). Besides, Republican Ron Paul is more likely to attract Libertarian write-ins even though he has formally left the race.
Not just libertarians, but politicians from all constellations of belief should have access to the voters — and the voters to them. That is the way of democracy. Pay attention as Libertarians seek petition signatures to overcome ballot access restrictions. Put aside your opinions of Libertarians or of Barr and consider what participatory democracy means to you. And then, if you live in one of the twenty states where Libertarians have yet to attain ballot access, sign a petition. Show that you’re for free and open elections. That is the best option, “Barr” none.
Now, all this talk of Mr. Barr might make some of you wonder about me again. Well, I'm perhaps the rarest of breeds....a left-leaning Libertarian in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I'm also a pragmatist. The Libertarian party has many things going for it this year, and this election cycle is going to be a huge success for the party between the attention garnered by Ron Paul and Bob Barr's candidacies. But we're not going to win, and none of us can afford to throw away votes for a dream. (are you listening, Hillary supporters?)
Yes, I'm sorry we may never see a viable third party in my lifetime, and I'm sorry the system is so geared towards the major parties that it's hard to even make inroads. But the election this year isn't about me, it's about us. I'm going to do what's right for America, and if my personal beliefs have to go on the back burner for the good of the rest of us for a time, so be it.
Comments:
Order comments Newest to Oldest Refresh Comments
Comment by 
m-hadley on 07/12/2008 13:48:48
m-hadley on 07/12/2008 13:48:48
Hiya Kids,
Just checkin' in - we flew to Portland yesterday - the conf (AALL - Am Assoc of Law Libraries) starts today and runs through Tuesday - then a friend/co-worker and I are renting a car and driving to the coast to see my sister and her vintage clothing store "Garbo's". Well fly back to Tulsa from Portland on Sunday, July 20th. More later, gators.
Hope all is well with you all. BTB, a very sobering post yesterday, BobR. I think my life is worth about 99cents at this point :P
cheers,
mfaye
:hug:
Just checkin' in - we flew to Portland yesterday - the conf (AALL - Am Assoc of Law Libraries) starts today and runs through Tuesday - then a friend/co-worker and I are renting a car and driving to the coast to see my sister and her vintage clothing store "Garbo's". Well fly back to Tulsa from Portland on Sunday, July 20th. More later, gators.
Hope all is well with you all. BTB, a very sobering post yesterday, BobR. I think my life is worth about 99cents at this point :P
cheers,
mfaye
:hug:
Comment by 
livingonli on 07/12/2008 14:05:16
livingonli on 07/12/2008 14:05:16
Good morning everyone. Just watching the new Spider-Man cartoon on the CW right now. I can be lazy for a few hours until I have to go to work.
Comment by 
capt on 07/12/2008 14:09:22
capt on 07/12/2008 14:09:22
Good Morning
Excellent post and good insights.
Bob Barr is an a**hole and I hope he hurts McCain, other than that he can go away. He was against the Patriot act but he has no good character. He has proven that over and over.
Ron Paul is a racist a**hole and a lying opportunist.
Neither embodies the hopes and dreams of any real libertarians.
The libertarian movement has become an insult to the goal the movement once held.
I can't take the movement seriously when they run people that are obviously not libertarians. I mean really? Bob Barr? (hold a picture of Bob next to Armstrong Williams - separated at birth?)
*****
On a scary note, I didn't want to comment on it last night -Indymac Bank - the largest Bank failure in history $32.01 billion FDIC regulators took over yesterday. The reason they had to step in was a $1.3 billion run on the bank.
Expect to see more of this . . .
Excellent post and good insights.
Bob Barr is an a**hole and I hope he hurts McCain, other than that he can go away. He was against the Patriot act but he has no good character. He has proven that over and over.
Ron Paul is a racist a**hole and a lying opportunist.
Neither embodies the hopes and dreams of any real libertarians.
The libertarian movement has become an insult to the goal the movement once held.
I can't take the movement seriously when they run people that are obviously not libertarians. I mean really? Bob Barr? (hold a picture of Bob next to Armstrong Williams - separated at birth?)
*****
On a scary note, I didn't want to comment on it last night -Indymac Bank - the largest Bank failure in history $32.01 billion FDIC regulators took over yesterday. The reason they had to step in was a $1.3 billion run on the bank.
Expect to see more of this . . .
Comment by 
velveeta jones on 07/12/2008 14:11:49
velveeta jones on 07/12/2008 14:11:49
Morning! Great post TriSec. I wish Bob Barr well. For selfish reasons to be sure, but also for the hope of viable 3rd parties in the future.
Off to work. Have a great day ya'll.
Velveeta is back! Blog tomorrow! WoHOOOO. (maybe) :blink:
Off to work. Have a great day ya'll.
Velveeta is back! Blog tomorrow! WoHOOOO. (maybe) :blink:
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 14:21:36
Wishing Bob Barr well?
Wish him well and success at your peril, he is no friend to democracy nor a participant in the process. He is a crass opportunist and was having extramarital affairs while pursuing Clinton for a BJ. He is a duplicitous liar and a hate filled creep.
capt on 07/12/2008 14:21:36
Quote by velveeta jones:
Morning! Great post TriSec. I wish Bob Barr well. For selfish reasons to be sure, but also for the hope of viable 3rd parties in the future.
Off to work. Have a great day ya'll.
Velveeta is back! Blog tomorrow! WoHOOOO. (maybe) :blink:
Wishing Bob Barr well?
Wish him well and success at your peril, he is no friend to democracy nor a participant in the process. He is a crass opportunist and was having extramarital affairs while pursuing Clinton for a BJ. He is a duplicitous liar and a hate filled creep.
Comment by livingonli on 07/12/2008 14:33:23
livingonli on 07/12/2008 14:33:23
Headline News is just reporting that Tony Snow has died. It does seem to prove suspicions that the cancer was worse than he was letting on. Not much love for him as a lying opportunist for the Bush administration but still not a good way to go.
Comment by 
BobR on 07/12/2008 14:34:48
BobR on 07/12/2008 14:34:48
Being from GA, I've had my fill of Bob Barr (and Newt Gingrich... and Zell Miller while we're at it). I don't know what it is about the Peach State that produces so many powerful yet insane politicians, but if someone figures it out, let me know so I can try to put a stop to it.
Perhaps the one good thing this election will do for the future (other than put Obama in the White House) is to make the Libertarian party more viable for future elections. We were having this discussion last night, that unlike candidates like Ralph Nader and Ross Perot who are more about vanity (and cult of personality) than party, the Libertarian party is at least respectable, entrenched, organized, and focused on more than just the presidential election every 4 years.
Next time, however, I would like to see them pick a candidate that isn't so right-wing and sleazy...
Perhaps the one good thing this election will do for the future (other than put Obama in the White House) is to make the Libertarian party more viable for future elections. We were having this discussion last night, that unlike candidates like Ralph Nader and Ross Perot who are more about vanity (and cult of personality) than party, the Libertarian party is at least respectable, entrenched, organized, and focused on more than just the presidential election every 4 years.
Next time, however, I would like to see them pick a candidate that isn't so right-wing and sleazy...
Comment by BobR on 07/12/2008 14:35:40
That sucks for his family.
BobR on 07/12/2008 14:35:40
Quote by livingonli:
Headline News is just reporting that Tony Snow has died. It does seem to prove suspicions that the cancer was worse than he was letting on. Not much love for him as a lying opportunist for the Bush administration but still not a good way to go.
That sucks for his family.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 14:39:35
Really?
Running the author of the DOMA as libertarian makes the liberatarians more focused?
That just seems confused, unfocused and a MAJOR sellout to me.
No viable thrid party can be built on Bob Barr or the racist Paul.
Do you really think Bob Barr or Ron Paul are liber-anything?
capt on 07/12/2008 14:39:35
Quote by BobR:
Being from GA, I've had my fill of Bob Barr (and Newt Gingrich... and Zell Miller while we're at it). I don't know what it is about the Peach State that produces so many powerful yet insane politicians, but if someone figures it out, let me know so I can try to put a stop to it.
Perhaps the one good thing this election will do for the future (other than put Obama in the White House) is to make the Libertarian party more viable for future elections. We were having this discussion last night, that unlike candidates like Ralph Nader and Ross Perot who are more about vanity (and cult of personality) than party, the Libertarian party is at least respectable, entrenched, organized, and focused on more than just the presidential election every 4 years.
Next time, however, I would like to see them pick a candidate that isn't so right-wing and sleazy...
Really?
Running the author of the DOMA as libertarian makes the liberatarians more focused?
That just seems confused, unfocused and a MAJOR sellout to me.
No viable thrid party can be built on Bob Barr or the racist Paul.
Do you really think Bob Barr or Ron Paul are liber-anything?
Comment by 
TriSec on 07/12/2008 14:47:06
TriSec on 07/12/2008 14:47:06
Honestly, I know little about Bob Barr. But I've followed Ron Paul for years. He's two politicians, as far as I'm concerned. I love his foreign policy and international relationship positions...Indeed he is very libertarian in that regard. Domestically though...I knew very little about until he became a 'real' candidate and I started paying attention. He does have some small ideas in that area that might work...but it's his big ideas (particularly around the Federal Reserve and the Dollar) that are downright frightening.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 14:51:30
I hope Mr. Snow was loved and will be missed by those who loved him.
I remember a time when the big "C" was an automatic death sentence. I still react like that. I am always surprised by how well the medical treatments have gotten at extending life or even beating cancer.
capt on 07/12/2008 14:51:30
I am going to concentrate on what's important in life. I'm going to strive everyday to be a kind and generous and loving person. I'm going to keep death right here, so that anytime I even think about getting angry at you or anybody else, I'll see death and I'll remember.
~ Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider, Northern Exposure, Do The Right Thing, 1992
I hope Mr. Snow was loved and will be missed by those who loved him.
I remember a time when the big "C" was an automatic death sentence. I still react like that. I am always surprised by how well the medical treatments have gotten at extending life or even beating cancer.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 14:53:52
Have you read Ron Paul's old newsletters?
I have them if you are interested in actually knowing about his sorry racist hate filled rants.
capt on 07/12/2008 14:53:52
Quote by TriSec:
Honestly, I know little about Bob Barr. But I've followed Ron Paul for years. He's two politicians, as far as I'm concerned. I love his foreign policy and international relationship positions...Indeed he is very libertarian in that regard. Domestically though...I knew very little about until he became a 'real' candidate and I started paying attention. He does have some small ideas in that area that might work...but it's his big ideas (particularly around the Federal Reserve and the Dollar) that are downright frightening.
Have you read Ron Paul's old newsletters?
I have them if you are interested in actually knowing about his sorry racist hate filled rants.
Comment by 
Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 14:58:21
Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 14:58:21
Morning. I must not stay up watch Edward James Olmos movies. :wacko:
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 15:06:56
capt on 07/12/2008 15:06:56
For the most part, the libertarians I know (and there are many) are not anti-abortion, anti-gay or racist. Both Bob Barr and Ron Paul are anti-abortion, anti-gay and racist. Not even close to what I understand libertarians to be. It doesn't pass the smell test that the non-party would run either of these jerks.
FWIW
FWIW
Comment by BobR on 07/12/2008 15:20:38
The Libertarian party has been running candidates in local elections and presidential elections for decades. They are not a fly-by-night (or fly every 4 years) organization. Bob Barr is Libertarian in the protection of privacy (and keeping government out of our personal lives) sense. He wasn't always that way, but in the last few years, yes.
That doesn't make him any less of a scumbag, but he can certainly be classified as a conservative Libertarian. I agree that the party sold out some of its credibility to gain some visibility this year. That hasn't always been the case.
I never mentioned Ron Paul - I know he was once a member of the party, but I don't believe he is officially connected to the party this year. I've read some of the racist screeds that were in the newsletters that came from his supporter organization. He denies writing or advocating them, but he certainly didn't try to stop them, knowing they carried his name on the letterhead.
I think Paul's contribution to this presidential election has been to remind people that there is an alternative to the Republican party, or at least what the party has become since 1994. He's acted as a catalyst or a conduit for the Libertarian party, which is healthy.
BobR on 07/12/2008 15:20:38
Quote by capt:
Really?
Running the author of the DOMA as libertarian makes the liberatarians more focused?
That just seems confused, unfocused and a MAJOR sellout to me.
No viable thrid party can be built on Bob Barr or the racist Paul.
Do you really think Bob Barr or Ron Paul are liber-anything?
The Libertarian party has been running candidates in local elections and presidential elections for decades. They are not a fly-by-night (or fly every 4 years) organization. Bob Barr is Libertarian in the protection of privacy (and keeping government out of our personal lives) sense. He wasn't always that way, but in the last few years, yes.
That doesn't make him any less of a scumbag, but he can certainly be classified as a conservative Libertarian. I agree that the party sold out some of its credibility to gain some visibility this year. That hasn't always been the case.
I never mentioned Ron Paul - I know he was once a member of the party, but I don't believe he is officially connected to the party this year. I've read some of the racist screeds that were in the newsletters that came from his supporter organization. He denies writing or advocating them, but he certainly didn't try to stop them, knowing they carried his name on the letterhead.
I think Paul's contribution to this presidential election has been to remind people that there is an alternative to the Republican party, or at least what the party has become since 1994. He's acted as a catalyst or a conduit for the Libertarian party, which is healthy.
Comment by BobR on 07/12/2008 15:25:29
I think that most of the Ron Paul supporters around don't look past his "no foreign entanglements" position to see the ugliness in his domestic policies. They are so enamored of his "get out of Iraq now" position, they're completely blinded to everything else.
I like his idea of closing all of our overseas military bases (or - alternatively - get the host nation to pay for them if we're there simply to help them protect themselves), but I would rather have someone a little more caring about the average Joe in office than this guy...
BobR on 07/12/2008 15:25:29
Quote by TriSec:
Honestly, I know little about Bob Barr. But I've followed Ron Paul for years. He's two politicians, as far as I'm concerned. I love his foreign policy and international relationship positions...Indeed he is very libertarian in that regard. Domestically though...I knew very little about until he became a 'real' candidate and I started paying attention. He does have some small ideas in that area that might work...but it's his big ideas (particularly around the Federal Reserve and the Dollar) that are downright frightening.
I think that most of the Ron Paul supporters around don't look past his "no foreign entanglements" position to see the ugliness in his domestic policies. They are so enamored of his "get out of Iraq now" position, they're completely blinded to everything else.
I like his idea of closing all of our overseas military bases (or - alternatively - get the host nation to pay for them if we're there simply to help them protect themselves), but I would rather have someone a little more caring about the average Joe in office than this guy...
Comment by 
Raine on 07/12/2008 15:26:31
Good morning everyone!
Capt, (and everyone else) I posted this story over on the message board in the Economy section... There is also another story in the same post... you may want to check it out.
Raine on 07/12/2008 15:26:31
Quote by capt:
Good Morning
Excellent post and good insights.
Bob Barr is an a**hole and I hope he hurts McCain, other than that he can go away. He was against the Patriot act but he has no good character. He has proven that over and over.
Ron Paul is a racist a**hole and a lying opportunist.
Neither embodies the hopes and dreams of any real libertarians.
The libertarian movement has become an insult to the goal the movement once held.
I can't take the movement seriously when they run people that are obviously not libertarians. I mean really? Bob Barr? (hold a picture of Bob next to Armstrong Williams - separated at birth?)
*****
On a scary note, I didn't want to comment on it last night -Indymac Bank - the largest Bank failure in history $32.01 billion FDIC regulators took over yesterday. The reason they had to step in was a $1.3 billion run on the bank.
Expect to see more of this . . .
Capt, (and everyone else) I posted this story over on the message board in the Economy section... There is also another story in the same post... you may want to check it out.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 15:26:47
If he didn't write them, read his original defense HERE. (Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of ""current events and statistical reports of the time.") no ghost writer, no mistake, no excuse.
He has zero credibility IMO.
Bob Barr is even worse.
NBD - I just hate it when people defend the indefensible.
Maybe it is just me. . . .
capt on 07/12/2008 15:26:47
Quote by BobR:Quote by capt:
Really?
Running the author of the DOMA as libertarian makes the liberatarians more focused?
That just seems confused, unfocused and a MAJOR sellout to me.
No viable thrid party can be built on Bob Barr or the racist Paul.
Do you really think Bob Barr or Ron Paul are liber-anything?
The Libertarian party has been running candidates in local elections and presidential elections for decades. They are not a fly-by-night (or fly every 4 years) organization. Bob Barr is Libertarian in the protection of privacy (and keeping government out of our personal lives) sense. He wasn't always that way, but in the last few years, yes.
That doesn't make him any less of a scumbag, but he can certainly be classified as a conservative Libertarian. I agree that the party sold out some of its credibility to gain some visibility this year. That hasn't always been the case.
I never mentioned Ron Paul - I know he was once a member of the party, but I don't believe he is officially connected to the party this year. I've read some of the racist screeds that were in the newsletters that came from his supporter organization. He denies writing or advocating them, but he certainly didn't try to stop them, knowing they carried his name on the letterhead.
I think Paul's contribution to this presidential election has been to remind people that there is an alternative to the Republican party, or at least what the party has become since 1994. He's acted as a catalyst or a conduit for the Libertarian party, which is healthy.
If he didn't write them, read his original defense HERE. (Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of ""current events and statistical reports of the time.") no ghost writer, no mistake, no excuse.
He has zero credibility IMO.
Bob Barr is even worse.
NBD - I just hate it when people defend the indefensible.
Maybe it is just me. . . .
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 15:28:25
I can't get on the message board?
capt on 07/12/2008 15:28:25
Quote by Raine:Good morning everyone!Quote by capt:
Good Morning
Excellent post and good insights.
Bob Barr is an a**hole and I hope he hurts McCain, other than that he can go away. He was against the Patriot act but he has no good character. He has proven that over and over.
Ron Paul is a racist a**hole and a lying opportunist.
Neither embodies the hopes and dreams of any real libertarians.
The libertarian movement has become an insult to the goal the movement once held.
I can't take the movement seriously when they run people that are obviously not libertarians. I mean really? Bob Barr? (hold a picture of Bob next to Armstrong Williams - separated at birth?)
*****
On a scary note, I didn't want to comment on it last night -Indymac Bank - the largest Bank failure in history $32.01 billion FDIC regulators took over yesterday. The reason they had to step in was a $1.3 billion run on the bank.
Expect to see more of this . . .
Capt, (and everyone else) I posted this story over on the message board in the Economy section... There is also another story in the same post... you may want to check it out.
I can't get on the message board?
Comment by BobR on 07/12/2008 15:45:27
Are you accusing me of defending Bob Barr and/or Ron Paul? I already gave you my opinions of them. I'm just trying to provide some persepctive beyond "they suck" with regards to their effect on this election.
Jaysus... :rolleyes2:
BobR on 07/12/2008 15:45:27
Quote by capt:
If he didn't write them, read his original defense HERE. (Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of ""current events and statistical reports of the time.") no ghost writer, no mistake, no excuse.
He has zero credibility IMO.
Bob Barr is even worse.
NBD - I just hate it when people defend the indefensible.
Maybe it is just me. . . .
Are you accusing me of defending Bob Barr and/or Ron Paul? I already gave you my opinions of them. I'm just trying to provide some persepctive beyond "they suck" with regards to their effect on this election.
Jaysus... :rolleyes2:
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 15:51:07
capt on 07/12/2008 15:51:07
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 15:59:16
I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, not my intention. Forgive me.
I don't think the libertarian party is focused nor do I think Bob Barr is a libertarian. That is just my opinion.
Bob Barr gets under my skin a bit and I think he sucks.
capt on 07/12/2008 15:59:16
Quote by BobR:Quote by capt:
If he didn't write them, read his original defense HERE. (Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of ""current events and statistical reports of the time.") no ghost writer, no mistake, no excuse.
He has zero credibility IMO.
Bob Barr is even worse.
NBD - I just hate it when people defend the indefensible.
Maybe it is just me. . . .
Are you accusing me of defending Bob Barr and/or Ron Paul? I already gave you my opinions of them. I'm just trying to provide some persepctive beyond "they suck" with regards to their effect on this election.
Jaysus... :rolleyes2:
I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, not my intention. Forgive me.
I don't think the libertarian party is focused nor do I think Bob Barr is a libertarian. That is just my opinion.
Bob Barr gets under my skin a bit and I think he sucks.
Comment by livingonli on 07/12/2008 16:17:36
livingonli on 07/12/2008 16:17:36
I go take a shower and look what I miss.
Bob Barr was the leader of the push to impeach Clinton and in the 90's he was very close to the Gingrich agenda. It just seems to be that under the Bush administration, he wasn't as keen about going into Iraq and he didn't support Bush's plans to create a police state in this country which made him persona non-grata in the GOP (including putting up a primary challenger which cost him his seat).
As for Ron Paul, he was closely tied to the militia movement in the 90's which was filled with White Supremacists. Even if he didn't endorse those views. many of those who supported him and his views did. While he is a Libertarian on foreign policy and economic issues, he is a supporter of the Christian Right social agenda since he wants to make abortion illegal, as well as pushing for other aspects of the Christian Right's attempts to impose their morality on us.
Bob Barr was the leader of the push to impeach Clinton and in the 90's he was very close to the Gingrich agenda. It just seems to be that under the Bush administration, he wasn't as keen about going into Iraq and he didn't support Bush's plans to create a police state in this country which made him persona non-grata in the GOP (including putting up a primary challenger which cost him his seat).
As for Ron Paul, he was closely tied to the militia movement in the 90's which was filled with White Supremacists. Even if he didn't endorse those views. many of those who supported him and his views did. While he is a Libertarian on foreign policy and economic issues, he is a supporter of the Christian Right social agenda since he wants to make abortion illegal, as well as pushing for other aspects of the Christian Right's attempts to impose their morality on us.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 16:35:36
capt on 07/12/2008 16:35:36
Bob Barr has a voting record. I don't see a history that supports his very recent conversion - even on issues he now claims to support that I support.
People can change and grow, people and their personal values and character are nearly set by the mid-century mark. Bob Barr can spend the rest of his days proving his is sincere - I don't believe him.
He authored the DOMA but has been married three times? Was anti-choice, anti-gay anti- presidential BJ - but that was then and this is now.
It is possible but when the lib's ran with Ron Paul they lost their way (obviously) and to pretend they have something to offer in Bob Barr is a stretch for me.
There are a few better lib candidates that don't have the name recognition so they are passed over. That doesn't mean the candidates with name recognition actually represent the best of the party or ideology - which is true for all parties.
I think I hold a grudge against Barr for going after Clinton. I was fairly uninterested in politics before the impeachment so Barr as a bad guy is kind of built into the foundations of my return to watching things political.
Actually, until they went after Clinton for a BJ I didn't know I was actually a militantly pro-BJ activist!
People can change and grow, people and their personal values and character are nearly set by the mid-century mark. Bob Barr can spend the rest of his days proving his is sincere - I don't believe him.
He authored the DOMA but has been married three times? Was anti-choice, anti-gay anti- presidential BJ - but that was then and this is now.
It is possible but when the lib's ran with Ron Paul they lost their way (obviously) and to pretend they have something to offer in Bob Barr is a stretch for me.
There are a few better lib candidates that don't have the name recognition so they are passed over. That doesn't mean the candidates with name recognition actually represent the best of the party or ideology - which is true for all parties.
I think I hold a grudge against Barr for going after Clinton. I was fairly uninterested in politics before the impeachment so Barr as a bad guy is kind of built into the foundations of my return to watching things political.
Actually, until they went after Clinton for a BJ I didn't know I was actually a militantly pro-BJ activist!
Comment by Raine on 07/12/2008 16:35:56
It is a separate registration, Click the *Forum* button on the top of the screen.
Raine on 07/12/2008 16:35:56
Quote by capt:
I can't get on the message board?
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 16:38:14
I am an idiot!
Thanks!
capt on 07/12/2008 16:38:14
Quote by Raine:It is a separate registration, Click the *Forum* button on the top of the screen.Quote by capt:
I can't get on the message board?
I am an idiot!
Thanks!
Comment by Raine on 07/12/2008 16:42:17
Raine on 07/12/2008 16:42:17
Speaking of BJ's and the *good ol' days...:sarcasm: This one came from OpEd News...
Go, peruse those statement, and then. I recommend sending of an email to them, quoting them and thier words. Bobb Barr is not holding office anymore, these F*ckers are.
Seven Republican Members of House Judiciary Call for Impeachment out of Duty to the Constitution?
GOP Reps. Smith, Sensenbrenner, Coble, Gallegly, Goodlatte, Chabot, and Cannon after much deliberation put the Constitution and rule of law before politics. Rep. Lamar Smith stated, “As much as one might wish to avoid this process, we must resist the temptation to close our eyes and pass by. The president's actions must be evaluated for one simple reason: the truth counts.”
[note: please read full article for a complete understanding. short on time? skim 'til you get to the end]
[... The following are the complete statements...]
The statements above are excerpts from transcripts of the House Judiciary Committee's impeachment hearings. December 10-11, 1998. Each congressman is a current member of the House Judiciary Committee.
Go, peruse those statement, and then. I recommend sending of an email to them, quoting them and thier words. Bobb Barr is not holding office anymore, these F*ckers are.
Comment by livingonli on 07/12/2008 16:49:21
As "Conservatives Without Conscience" pointed out, it's power and party before principal. They only give a damn about alleged Constitutional abuses, if they want to get rid of a Democratic politican. But anything goes if you're a Republican.
Maybe these fuckers should be in jail with the war criminals Bush and Cheney that they have enabled.
livingonli on 07/12/2008 16:49:21
Quote by Raine:
Speaking of BJ's and the *good ol' days...:sarcasm: This one came from OpEd News...Seven Republican Members of House Judiciary Call for Impeachment out of Duty to the Constitution?
GOP Reps. Smith, Sensenbrenner, Coble, Gallegly, Goodlatte, Chabot, and Cannon after much deliberation put the Constitution and rule of law before politics. Rep. Lamar Smith stated, “As much as one might wish to avoid this process, we must resist the temptation to close our eyes and pass by. The president's actions must be evaluated for one simple reason: the truth counts.”
[note: please read full article for a complete understanding. short on time? skim 'til you get to the end]
[... The following are the complete statements...]
The statements above are excerpts from transcripts of the House Judiciary Committee's impeachment hearings. December 10-11, 1998. Each congressman is a current member of the House Judiciary Committee.
Go, peruse those statement, and then. I recommend sending of an email to them, quoting them and thier words. Bobb Barr is not holding office anymore, these F*ckers are.
As "Conservatives Without Conscience" pointed out, it's power and party before principal. They only give a damn about alleged Constitutional abuses, if they want to get rid of a Democratic politican. But anything goes if you're a Republican.
Maybe these fuckers should be in jail with the war criminals Bush and Cheney that they have enabled.
Comment by 
Random on 07/12/2008 16:52:17
Random on 07/12/2008 16:52:17
Am i the only one who is unsure of how to view Snow's death?
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 16:57:21
For me it is about one notch from being the same consideration I had for Helms. . .
I hope he was loved by his family and friends 'cause I have the luxury of total indifference from a distance.
capt on 07/12/2008 16:57:21
Quote by Random:
Am i the only one who is unsure of how to view Snow's death?
For me it is about one notch from being the same consideration I had for Helms. . .
I hope he was loved by his family and friends 'cause I have the luxury of total indifference from a distance.
Comment by BobR on 07/12/2008 16:57:23
No.
BobR on 07/12/2008 16:57:23
Quote by Random:
Am i the only one who is unsure of how to view Snow's death?
No.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 17:00:20
Too many of the politicians from all parties make me want to drown their sorry butts in the reflecting pond . . .
I guess if I were in charge we would have a hard time filling the seats in congress and I would be a very poor dictator. . .
capt on 07/12/2008 17:00:20
Quote by livingonli:Quote by Raine:
Speaking of BJ's and the *good ol' days...:sarcasm: This one came from OpEd News...Seven Republican Members of House Judiciary Call for Impeachment out of Duty to the Constitution?
GOP Reps. Smith, Sensenbrenner, Coble, Gallegly, Goodlatte, Chabot, and Cannon after much deliberation put the Constitution and rule of law before politics. Rep. Lamar Smith stated, “As much as one might wish to avoid this process, we must resist the temptation to close our eyes and pass by. The president's actions must be evaluated for one simple reason: the truth counts.”
[note: please read full article for a complete understanding. short on time? skim 'til you get to the end]
[... The following are the complete statements...]
The statements above are excerpts from transcripts of the House Judiciary Committee's impeachment hearings. December 10-11, 1998. Each congressman is a current member of the House Judiciary Committee.
Go, peruse those statement, and then. I recommend sending of an email to them, quoting them and thier words. Bobb Barr is not holding office anymore, these F*ckers are.
As "Conservatives Without Conscience" pointed out, it's power and party before principal. They only give a damn about alleged Constitutional abuses, if they want to get rid of a Democratic politican. But anything goes if you're a Republican.
Maybe these fuckers should be in jail with the war criminals Bush and Cheney that they have enabled.
Too many of the politicians from all parties make me want to drown their sorry butts in the reflecting pond . . .
I guess if I were in charge we would have a hard time filling the seats in congress and I would be a very poor dictator. . .
Comment by Random on 07/12/2008 17:04:14
Well, all i know about Snow is that he was good at shilling for whoever was paying for him, may not have agreed with what he said, but i know nothing of his personal feelings.
Helms I can feel kind of glad his hatred is gone, but Snow was just a bullshitter, could have been a good guy outside of his job.
Random on 07/12/2008 17:04:14
Quote by capt:Quote by Random:
Am i the only one who is unsure of how to view Snow's death?
For me it is about one notch from being the same consideration I had for Helms. . .
I hope he was loved by his family and friends 'cause I have the luxury of total indifference from a distance.
Well, all i know about Snow is that he was good at shilling for whoever was paying for him, may not have agreed with what he said, but i know nothing of his personal feelings.
Helms I can feel kind of glad his hatred is gone, but Snow was just a bullshitter, could have been a good guy outside of his job.
Comment by 
trojanrabbit on 07/12/2008 17:11:56
I find it much easier to separate the man from the politics with Snow, where with Helms and the like it's impossible. Hell, I even felt a little bad when Nixon died. There at least seemed to be almost universal respect among the press corps for Snow.
trojanrabbit on 07/12/2008 17:11:56
Quote by Random:
Am i the only one who is unsure of how to view Snow's death?
I find it much easier to separate the man from the politics with Snow, where with Helms and the like it's impossible. Hell, I even felt a little bad when Nixon died. There at least seemed to be almost universal respect among the press corps for Snow.
Comment by Raine on 07/12/2008 17:15:34
Raine on 07/12/2008 17:15:34
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 17:29:29
capt on 07/12/2008 17:29:29
The many falsehoods of Tony Snow
Tony came in to enable Rove, Libby, Cheney and Bush. He gets no pass for being respected or revered by his contemporaries. He was a paid liar and shill. No better or worse than any other WH mouthpiece under Bush. IMO
Summary: Media Matters for America presents a compilation of false and misleading claims advanced by Tony Snow -- a Fox News Radio host, Fox News guest host and commentator, and former speechwriter to President George H.W. Bush -- who is reportedly being considered by the White House to replace outgoing press secretary Scott McClellan.
Tony came in to enable Rove, Libby, Cheney and Bush. He gets no pass for being respected or revered by his contemporaries. He was a paid liar and shill. No better or worse than any other WH mouthpiece under Bush. IMO
Comment by Raine on 07/12/2008 17:29:52
Raine on 07/12/2008 17:29:52
Snow was no helms, nor falwell... at least not to me. I will hold other comments in my thought bubble. When Bob told me this this morning, I was sad, to tell you the truth. Not becuase I liked his actions, but becuase I truly hoped that he would get better from a devastating disease.
I hope he rests in peace.
I hope he rests in peace.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 17:29:57
Best one yet!
capt on 07/12/2008 17:29:57
Quote by Raine:
Best one yet!
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 18:04:33
capt on 07/12/2008 18:04:33
Radio Factor guest host Tony Snow offered false and misleading attacks on Obama
Thu, Apr 3, 2008 12:50pm ET
Just a couple of months ago? I would never wish ill health or anything short of a complete recovery to anybody. I am just as indifferent to his passing as I am to Helms.
Thu, Apr 3, 2008 12:50pm ET
Summary: Guest-hosting The Radio Factor, Tony Snow falsely claimed that "since he's been in the United States Senate, [Sen. Barack Obama] has voted present more often than any other member of the Senate." Snow also asserted that Obama "has described Jeremiah Wright as one of his key political advisers, and he said that he didn't make any key political decision without consulting him." In fact, Obama has stated that Wright "has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor."
Just a couple of months ago? I would never wish ill health or anything short of a complete recovery to anybody. I am just as indifferent to his passing as I am to Helms.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 18:19:51
Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 18:19:51
"Modern Jackass" was mentioned on "This American Life" today. Have we forgot out extensive collection? Is it still sealed in the negative pressure, argon filled cabinet? Is each issues still protected in a static free mylar envelope?
:scurries over the the cabinet: Oh yes, there are my preciousessss! :strokes magazines lovingly: My preciousessssssssssss!
:scurries over the the cabinet: Oh yes, there are my preciousessss! :strokes magazines lovingly: My preciousessssssssssss!
Comment by livingonli on 07/12/2008 18:27:06
I know that even though he was a Bush shill, I didn't feel towards him like I did towards Helms. I will be respectful about Snow's passing but I had no love for Helms because he was such a vile person and I am glad he is dead.
When Bush and Cheney do leave this mortal coil I will probably rejoice in their passings and hope they get karma payback in hell.
livingonli on 07/12/2008 18:27:06
Quote by Raine:
Snow was no helms, nor falwell... at least not to me. I will hold other comments in my thought bubble. When Bob told me this this morning, I was sad, to tell you the truth. Not becuase I liked his actions, but becuase I truly hoped that he would get better from a devastating disease.
I hope he rests in peace.
I know that even though he was a Bush shill, I didn't feel towards him like I did towards Helms. I will be respectful about Snow's passing but I had no love for Helms because he was such a vile person and I am glad he is dead.
When Bush and Cheney do leave this mortal coil I will probably rejoice in their passings and hope they get karma payback in hell.
Comment by Raine on 07/12/2008 18:29:09
Raine on 07/12/2008 18:29:09
So what do y'all think? According to this Blogger, B*sh never invoked Executive Priveledge for kkKarl Rove...
Who, like the WMD's, still hasn't been found.
Who, like the WMD's, still hasn't been found.
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 18:35:48
Well given the Douchebag-in-chief's many minions on the subject have gone on and on and on, over and over and over again about the inherent powers of the office, he doesn't need to invoke executive privilege it just there, like some sort or ether surrounding the presidency.
Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 18:35:48
Quote by Raine:
So what do y'all think? According to this Blogger, B*sh never invoked Executive Priveledge for kkKarl Rove...
Who, like the WMD's, still hasn't been found.
Well given the Douchebag-in-chief's many minions on the subject have gone on and on and on, over and over and over again about the inherent powers of the office, he doesn't need to invoke executive privilege it just there, like some sort or ether surrounding the presidency.
Comment by BobR on 07/12/2008 18:36:38
I don't know - I'd say it's a 3 way tie with these:
BobR on 07/12/2008 18:36:38
Quote by capt:
Best one yet!
I don't know - I'd say it's a 3 way tie with these:
Comment by Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 18:40:03
Mondobubba on 07/12/2008 18:40:03
As an aside, I really hate Delores Umbridge. Imelda Staunton did a brilliant job of playing her in the movie. yeah I'm watching it.
Hi, my name is Mondo and I am a Harry Potter geek.
Hi, my name is Mondo and I am a Harry Potter geek.
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 19:00:33
capt on 07/12/2008 19:00:33
Let us not forget:
Still the kid dancing is up there!
CRACKS ME UP!!!
Still the kid dancing is up there!
CRACKS ME UP!!!
Comment by capt on 07/12/2008 19:05:49
capt on 07/12/2008 19:05:49
Hi, my name is capt and I am a Harry Potter geek enabler.
My better half is a Harry Potter geek - big time. She is book a day reader at times. I have to keep her in stock with a backlog of books or I'm in trouble!
My better half is a Harry Potter geek - big time. She is book a day reader at times. I have to keep her in stock with a backlog of books or I'm in trouble!
Comment by livingonli on 07/12/2008 19:22:45
livingonli on 07/12/2008 19:22:45
Time to head off to the salt mine. I have to AD a Liberty game tonight so I may not be on the blog so much tonight. If not, I will see you all tomorrow here and there while I work my OT.
:peace:
:peace: