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There is No Debate
Author: Raine    Date: 10/04/2012 13:02:52

Last night was an unmitigated disaster, this is clear. One man was desperate on that stage last night.

I believe the other man, the incumbent President, came to debate issues and facts. That is impossible to do when the opponent tells flat out lies to the American people. It's impossible to debate a lie unless there is acknowledgement of said lie.

Josh Marshall has an interesting take on last night:
The Obama team isn’t going to try to get into a fight about whether their guy was on his game. There’s no point. (This is what I meant a couple days ago when I said Obama is not a great debater. Not a great night. But I’ve never seen him great at debating.) What I fully expect, what they’ll do if they’re smart is go full court press on Romney’s numbers and press for details about his budget plan.

The numbers simply don’t add up. Over a few news cycles that can build up really fast. He says he’ll push massive upper income tax cuts and those have to come at the cost of much higher deficits or big tax hikes for middle income people. His campaign agenda is based on a massive deception.

That’s the vulnerability Romney brings out of this debate. And it may be bigger than people realize.
Romney came across as an overly aggressive man. It was the style of this debate that people are discussing today, and it was ugly. The man has no substance. None. He was a salesman debating a professor. Mitt Romney came to debate things that aren't real in order to get you to buy his product.

The facts will come back to haunt Romney. While there are people out there that will declare Mitt Romney as the winner, I say it is a sad state of affairs in this nation when we declare pure unadulterated lying as winning. If people really want to change this country, it might be a good place to start by not celebrating deceit, disrespect and bullying behavior. This is NOT a win. Not for anyone. We all deserve better than what we saw last night. For all the practicing and all the studying, this is what we got:


THAT is what happened last night. This wasn't a debate, this was a mess. Lehrer lost control of it less than a half hour in, and there was no turning back. Telling a lie is one thing, getting away with a lie is another. Style vs.Substance. Romney's substance was full of lies all night:




and
Raine

108 comments (Latest Comment: 10/05/2012 00:22:04 by livingonli)
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Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 13:08:48
Morning

I have debate hangover

Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 13:12:27
Morning, comrades.

Unfortunately, I have to consider myself in the Romney "won" camp. But that's more because Jim Lehrer lost control in the first 15-minute segment and Mitt jumped in the driver's seat. The same exact thing happened at the Warren/Brown debate with David Gregory, and again I think the Republican "won" that one.

I'm as big a political geek as anyone here, and last night was truly painful to watch. I already have seen some right-wing news sites this morning declaring Romney the "more agressive" candidate last night. Bullying, Rude, and not following the rules would be seen as "more agressive", yes.

Of course Media Matters has debunked every word that has come out of Romney's mouth already, but except for us hardcore geeks, the vast majority of unwashed heathens out there isn't going to care about that.

What a sorry state of affairs this has become. Lincoln and Douglas are both spinning in their sarcophogi this morning, I'm sure.


Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:20:46
I added another video to the blog.

You can say that Mitt won the same way you can say the winner of American idol is the new superstar.



Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 13:23:13
Raine check ya email

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:24:18
Quote by wickedpam:
Raine check ya email
was it sent last night?



Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:26:06
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Raine check ya email
was it sent last night?

it has arrived....



Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 13:26:29
Say, Mitt never landed a "zinger" last night, did he?

Swing and a miss!



Comment by trojanrabbit on 10/04/2012 13:27:39
I have a massive headache this morning.

That was painful to watch. AFAIC all 3 did their masters bidding last night. Give Mittbot's latest firmware upgrade a chance to get him back in it. It matters not how many lies and deceptions Mitt threw out that were utterly unchallenged by Obama but will be caught by the fact-checkers. The people that need to see the fact-checks will not see them.

Lehrer TOTALLY deserved Mitt telling him to his face that he intends to do away with PBS (and Lehrer's job), however dickish that was.

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:27:47
Quote by TriSec:
Say, Mitt never landed a "zinger" last night, did he?

Swing and a miss!

He's gonna kill big bird.


Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 13:28:31
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Raine check ya email
was it sent last night?

it has arrived....




cool

Comment by trojanrabbit on 10/04/2012 13:28:50
Tom Lehrer would have made a much better moderator.

Comment by Scoopster on 10/04/2012 13:33:09
Mornin' all!

So I was able to watch the debate last night at the sleep clinic. They had me wired up before it started, but I wasn't connected until after. Probably a good thing because the signals coming from my brain probably would've blown out their equipment!

Comment by Mondobubba on 10/04/2012 13:34:01
I agree with Tri.

Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 13:40:12
Going to the White House now:


Dear Mr. President:

I will be very direct; the time has come for you to resign as honorary President of the Boy Scouts of America.

I am a lifelong member of this organization myself, and I have had a very difficult time over the last few years reconciling the tolerance, compassion, and service that I teach to our youth with the blatant hate and homophobia espoused by our national leadership.

You have been a true leader in the LGBT community…from defending civil rights, to ending “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”, and working for marriage equality via the DNC’s platform this year.

It’s inexplicable to me how you can remain, even as an honorary member of the Boy Scouts. These things that you defend as President are incompatible with the current direction of the Boy Scouts. This has happened to me recently – I’ve had my own honour and integrity questioned by the mere fact of wearing the uniform. People will slowly begin to see the same thing in the Oval Office, and this cannot happen.

Additionally, it is perhaps time for you to ask Congress to rescind the Boy Scout’s national charter. As I’m sure you’re aware, every year the Congress charters the BSA to operate in the United States. It may be more symbolic than anything else, but for the government of the United States to continue to annually sanction the operating principles of what has become a hate group is utterly astonishing to me.

Please consider this strongly, Mr. President. This will send a clear message to the Boy Scouts, as well as other exclusionary and hateful groups that such discrimination is not allowed or tolerated in these United States.

Sincerely, ME!


Comment by Scoopster on 10/04/2012 13:42:53
Okay here's my take on the debate - I don't think ANYONE won, but if I had to pick someone it'd be Rmoney by default. Obama was clearly out of his element and/or nervous, and only once did he challenge one of Rmoney's repeated lying. Both candidates shoved the moderator out of the way, tho Rmoney did so more forcefully because he HAD TO. Unfortunately for him he came off looking like a whiny bully at the times when he wasn't lying his ass off, and that was clearly not presidential.

And now here is a funny pic:

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603274_10151060807391230_1195027812_n.jpg


Comment by Mondobubba on 10/04/2012 13:45:52
Quote by TriSec:
Going to the White House now:


Dear Mr. President:

I will be very direct; the time has come for you to resign as honorary President of the Boy Scouts of America.

I am a lifelong member of this organization myself, and I have had a very difficult time over the last few years reconciling the tolerance, compassion, and service that I teach to our youth with the blatant hate and homophobia espoused by our national leadership.

You have been a true leader in the LGBT community…from defending civil rights, to ending “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”, and working for marriage equality via the DNC’s platform this year.

It’s inexplicable to me how you can remain, even as an honorary member of the Boy Scouts. These things that you defend as President are incompatible with the current direction of the Boy Scouts. This has happened to me recently – I’ve had my own honour and integrity questioned by the mere fact of wearing the uniform. People will slowly begin to see the same thing in the Oval Office, and this cannot happen.

Additionally, it is perhaps time for you to ask Congress to rescind the Boy Scout’s national charter. As I’m sure you’re aware, every year the Congress charters the BSA to operate in the United States. It may be more symbolic than anything else, but for the government of the United States to continue to annually sanction the operating principles of what has become a hate group is utterly astonishing to me.

Please consider this strongly, Mr. President. This will send a clear message to the Boy Scouts, as well as other exclusionary and hateful groups that such discrimination is not allowed or tolerated in these United States.

Sincerely, ME!



Well said, good sir. I know this was from the heart and very difficult for you to say.

Comment by Mondobubba on 10/04/2012 13:47:30


Today's earworm. :snaps fingers:

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:51:43
Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:54:17
Once again:


Eligible Virginia registered voters generally can download an application here or contact your local Voter Registration Office to request an absentee ballot application. You can return the completed application to your local voter registration office by either mail or fax. The absentee ballot application must be received in your local voter registration office by 5:00 PM eastern standard time on the Tuesday prior to the election day in which the applicant wants to vote.


Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 13:54:57
Quote by Raine:
Mala, this is the VA absentee voter reg form.


yes, you'll notice the official Richmond addresses at different from what's on the mailer.


Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 13:56:04
Quote by Raine:
Once again:


Eligible Virginia registered voters generally can download an application here or contact your local Voter Registration Office to request an absentee ballot application. You can return the completed application to your local voter registration office by either mail or fax. The absentee ballot application must be received in your local voter registration office by 5:00 PM eastern standard time on the Tuesday prior to the election day in which the applicant wants to vote.


am I interpreting something wrong then?

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:56:14
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Mala, this is the VA absentee voter reg form.


yes, you'll notice the official Richmond addresses at different from what's on the mailer.
I think that this needs to be brought up with the fairfax county board of elections.


Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 13:57:13
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Once again:


Eligible Virginia registered voters generally can download an application here or contact your local Voter Registration Office to request an absentee ballot application. You can return the completed application to your local voter registration office by either mail or fax. The absentee ballot application must be received in your local voter registration office by 5:00 PM eastern standard time on the Tuesday prior to the election day in which the applicant wants to vote.


am I interpreting something wrong then?
The mailer is asking people to send the application into the GOP office.

Now let me ask you this, was the person who got this in the mail a dem or a Republican?


Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 13:58:15
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Mala, this is the VA absentee voter reg form.


yes, you'll notice the official Richmond addresses at different from what's on the mailer.
I think that this needs to be brought up with the fairfax county board of elections.



Fairfax?

Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 14:00:44
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Once again:


Eligible Virginia registered voters generally can download an application here or contact your local Voter Registration Office to request an absentee ballot application. You can return the completed application to your local voter registration office by either mail or fax. The absentee ballot application must be received in your local voter registration office by 5:00 PM eastern standard time on the Tuesday prior to the election day in which the applicant wants to vote.


am I interpreting something wrong then?
The mailer is asking people to send the application into the GOP office.

Now let me ask you this, was the person who got this in the mail a dem or a Republican?



From what I was told - it was mailed to a mixed political home - husband a Repub, wife a Dem she blacked out the name of who it was specifically mailed too. Since I didn't get one, and it was mailed to someone in Manassas, I'm going to guess it was to a Repub


Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:01:45
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Mala, this is the VA absentee voter reg form.


yes, you'll notice the official Richmond addresses at different from what's on the mailer.
I think that this needs to be brought up with the fairfax county board of elections.



Fairfax?

Isn't that your county?

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:02:12
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Mala, this is the VA absentee voter reg form.


yes, you'll notice the official Richmond addresses at different from what's on the mailer.
I think that this needs to be brought up with the fairfax county board of elections.



Fairfax?

Isn't that your county?
Ok, your local BOE.

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:03:12
That it was sent to a mixed home tells me something. I think they are hoping to get dems registered -- possibly illegally.

Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 14:03:50
Quote by Raine:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
Mala, this is the VA absentee voter reg form.


yes, you'll notice the official Richmond addresses at different from what's on the mailer.
I think that this needs to be brought up with the fairfax county board of elections.



Fairfax?

Isn't that your county?
Ok, your local BOE.



City of Manassas, we are independant

Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 14:05:22
Quote by Raine:
That it was sent to a mixed home tells me something. I think they are hoping to get dems registered -- possibly illegally.



That was the concern. That people would mail it to them and they could pull out the ones they didn't like.

Oh, we were told a complaint was registered but I'll double check

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:25:32
MAla I am forwarding this information to a friend that has contacts with the VA Board of elections.

Would you like to be included in the e mail?

Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 14:28:40
Quote by Raine:
MAla I am forwarding this information to a friend that has contacts with the VA Board of elections.

Would you like to be included in the e mail?


Sure you can cc me.


Comment by Will in Chicago on 10/04/2012 14:30:21
Raine, thanks for a great blog after a painful debate.

I think that a ground squirrel or an empty chair would have been more effective than Jim Lehrer. Romney bullied his way to victory, and Obama needed to respond with facts and passion.

TriSec, your letter shows courage but I do not think that Obama will move on this, if at all, until after the election.

Stephanie Miller mentioned the article earlier, but let me post this piece from Alternet:



Alternet/ By Adele M. Stan

Why That Crappy Presidential Debate Won't Change Anyone's Mind
With only a sliver of the electorate undecided on its candidate, the 2012 debates are not about persuading voters.


October 4, 2012 |


By most accounts, Wednesday night’s presidential debate was one of the worst anybody could remember. Moderator Jim Lehrer, anchor of the PBS NewsHour, seemed largely absent, President Barack Obama brought little fight to the game , and Republican challenger Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, presented a pile of lies that were left either unchallenged or ineffectively countered.

Add to that the barrage of numbers issued by each candidate, and you have the recipe for a very boring and dispiriting debate. And it was.

This first presidential debate in a series of three (heaven help us), which took place at the Magness Arena on the campus of the University of Denver, probably didn’t change many minds. Election 2012 finds a more highly polarized electorate than normal; only 6 percent or so of voters are deemed “persuadable” by pollsters, and it’s unlikely that a majority of those undecided voters were even watching the debate.

On our highly polarized political landscape, debates are fought for the amusement of media industrial complex, and not for the voters. It’s part of the media’s jobs program for campaign consultants and former consultants who become ubiquitous on television as “expert” interpreters of what viewers witnessed on the debate stage.



Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:49:14
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
MAla I am forwarding this information to a friend that has contacts with the VA Board of elections.

Would you like to be included in the e mail?


Sure you can cc me.
as they say, Shite just got real!




Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 14:51:42
Quote by Raine:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
MAla I am forwarding this information to a friend that has contacts with the VA Board of elections.

Would you like to be included in the e mail?


Sure you can cc me.
as they say, Shite just got real!





Can't wait to hear what they say

Comment by Mondobubba on 10/04/2012 14:51:45
Now that I have a few minutes to think and comment, here's what I've got to say.

Mitt likes Big Bird, but wants to cut the subsidy for PBS? That .010% cut of the discrectionary budget is gonna come back to bit Mittbot on the backside. Frankly all of the shit Mittbot was spewing the 36 minutes I managed to watch (don't judge me! So I wanted to see the Sox flame out in the last get of the season) is going to be lovingly crafted into ads. Those adds are going to have Mittbot's BS and then the finely fact checked reality. Mitt might have looked like a winner, but in the cold light of day, not so much.

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:52:23
Quote by Will in Chicago:
Raine, thanks for a great blog after a painful debate.

I think that a ground squirrel or an empty chair would have been more effective than Jim Lehrer. Romney bullied his way to victory, and Obama needed to respond with facts and passion.
There was no way to polish a turd and I wasn't going to try in the today's blog.

Lehrer lost control of that petulant hyperactive mean-spirited child last night. I honestly don't blame the President for not stooping to that level.


Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 14:53:51
Quote by Mondobubba:
Now that I have a few minutes to think and comment, here's what I've got to say.

Mitt likes Big Bird, but wants to cut the subsidy for PBS? That .010% cut of the discrectionary budget is gonna come back to bit Mittbot on the backside. Frankly all of the shit Mittbot was spewing the 36 minutes I managed to watch (don't judge me! So I wanted to see the Sox flame out in the last get of the season) is going to be lovingly crafted into ads. Those adds are going to have Mittbot's BS and then the finely fact checked reality. Mitt might have looked like a winner, but in the cold light of day, not so much.

I know you can't watch youtube at work, but I included the first 2 rapid response ads in the blog. I think he may have won this round, but as a friend said last night: Obama plays long ball.

You are correct sir.

Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 14:58:18
*ting*

Hmm....So, Mitt is the St. Louis Cardinals to Obama's Yankees?

(Of course, that was NL "small ball" at it's best when Tony La Russa was managing, but you get the idea.)

Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 15:00:21
Quote by TriSec:
*ting*

Hmm....So, Mitt is the St. Louis Cardinals to Obama's Yankees?

(Of course, that was NL "small ball" at it's best when Tony La Russa was managing, but you get the idea.)
I just realized I mixed my sports metaphors....


Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 15:09:12
If Obama is going to play this series like the Yankees, I'll gladly don a NY hat.

Well, actually no, it would make my scalp burst into flame. Chemo didn't do it, I'd rather keep my hair, thanks.



Comment by Raine on 10/04/2012 15:21:00
This was really inappropriate:

Deploying Twitter-speak, KitchenAid sent this message:
"Obamas gma even knew it was going 2 b bad! 'She died 3 days b4 he became president."


WTF?

Comment by wickedpam on 10/04/2012 15:26:09
Quote by Raine:
This was really inappropriate:

Deploying Twitter-speak, KitchenAid sent this message:
"Obamas gma even knew it was going 2 b bad! 'She died 3 days b4 he became president."


WTF?



and now I"m glad my mixer is a kenmore

Comment by BobR on 10/04/2012 15:55:58
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
This was really inappropriate:

Deploying Twitter-speak, KitchenAid sent this message:
"Obamas gma even knew it was going 2 b bad! 'She died 3 days b4 he became president."


WTF?

and now I"m glad my mixer is a kenmore

They blamed it on an employee accidentally using the corporate login. They apologized and said that person won't be tweeting for them anymore. I'll take them at their word on that.

Comment by Scoopster on 10/04/2012 15:56:53
Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 16:05:31
Quote by Scoopster:
New 'conservative seniors' group formed to challenge AARP

Uhh, yeah, whatever.



And they are to be named ROWRP. (Really old white Republican persons).


Comment by trojanrabbit on 10/04/2012 16:08:56
Quote by BobR:
Quote by wickedpam:
Quote by Raine:
This was really inappropriate:

Deploying Twitter-speak, KitchenAid sent this message:
"Obamas gma even knew it was going 2 b bad! 'She died 3 days b4 he became president."


WTF?

and now I"m glad my mixer is a kenmore

They blamed it on an employee accidentally using the corporate login. They apologized and said that person won't be tweeting for them anymore. I'll take them at their word on that.


They should have said that person won't be WORKING for them anymore.

Comment by livingonli on 10/04/2012 16:10:09
Good day, folks: I stuck through most of the debate although towards the end I just left it on the radio while I surfed through what was left of baseball season and saw the Yankees kill the Red Sox in a blaze of glory and the O's having to accept having to go through the one and done round on Friday for the chance to play the Yankees in what was considered the first round of the playoffs:

While Romney won the debate, he won it through bullying and lying his ass off while Lehrer basically sat there (note my comments last night about the potted plant): I guess the only question is how many people also followed the fact-checking after the debate where Romney did not fare so well:

Comment by TriSec on 10/04/2012 16:23:20
So, the industry was for Obamacare before they were against it...


The health insurance industry presented itself as a key ally of President Barack Obama’s health care law while at the same time making hefty contributions to members of Congress who are trying to get rid of it, according to contribution records.

Between January of 2007 and August of 2012, the political action committees of the 11 largest health insurance companies and their primary trade group gave $10.2 million to federal politicians, with nearly two-thirds of the total going to Republicans who oppose the law or support its repeal, according to the Center for Public Integrity’s analysis of Federal Election Commission filings.

The 11 top companies, according to the Fortune 500 list, controlled 35 percent of the industry in 2011, according to data from the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. The top industry trade group is America’s Health Insurance Plans.




Comment by trojanrabbit on 10/04/2012 16:28:03
Quote by livingonli:
Good day, folks: I stuck through most of the debate although towards the end I just left it on the radio while I surfed through what was left of baseball season and saw the Yankees kill the Red Sox in a blaze of glory and the O's having to accept having to go through the one and done round on Friday for the chance to play the Yankees in what was considered the first round of the playoffs:

While Romney won the debate, he won it through bullying and lying his ass off while Lehrer basically sat there (note my comments last night about the potted plant): I guess the only question is how many people also followed the fact-checking after the debate where Romney did not fare so well:


Anyone (especially from Baltimore) who thought the Sox-Yankees game would go any differently when it was announced Matsuzaka was starting obviously have not been following baseball. Valentine couldn't have said "I don't give a crap" louder if he had 1 gigawatt PA system set to 11.

And as long as ownership cares more about their "sellout streak", selling bricks and tending to their racing and soccer teams, not much will change.